Post your "UNPOPULAR" Japanese music opinions! / aka "HOT TAKES" :P

The entire point of my proposal was to press enough copies so that all fans who are interested can get a copy, plus a few more in case some get lost or damaged in transfer. It’s not wasting money because anyone buying one knows they are paying for the materials, labor, shipping, and profit margin. This is one of those situations where the price to entry gets cheaper as the number of orders increase because you can scale production. But we will not know the demand unless we start asking the right questions. Putting feelers out there and starting discussion is how you cultivate interest.

This is the reaction I’m looking for. There are a lot of things that people don’t know they want until they see it. That vinyl render is sick and it’s quite a common finish too! Imagine how cool it would be to own that, or maybe another release that you fancy that could have a completely different design or aesthetic. After all, this is visual kei and we’re all about aesthetics, and I happen to believe that there’s more room for expression in a vinyl than in a CD case. But I digress…

I’m pretty sure Dir en grey would have at least 250 fans around the world interested in a vinyl repress of VULGAR - and that’s just judging by the competition that would appear if one of those 10 VULGAR LP’s went on the market. Instead of guessing how many new reprints to make and getting it wrong, take custom orders! I want visual kei labels to actually try be consumer friendly for a change and realize how quickly fans are willing to fork over money…

And at the end of the day, no one is forcing you to buy vinyl. I tried to explain my perspective in why I ended up looking into the format - because we actually have very similar habits and walked a portion of the same path - but I’m not trying to convince you to buy into it. It’s not even a thing. Stick with CDs if you want because they still serve a purpose! Just make vinyl an option for those who want it and leave room for those who are curious.

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I feel like out of any band in the vkei scene, the GazettE would be the ones to try something crazy with packaging design. They’ve released some premium stuff on CD and I’d be very curious to see what they’d do here. Nil velour case, Disorder black and gold case, and the Dim packaging with the holographic slipcase and artbook are by far my favorite CD packaging for just how sleek they are. They at least knock it out of the park with aesthetics, so even if the packaging is simple or bare bones I’d probably want to buy a record from them just to own the artwork.

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But maybe that’s another point of the whole topic, maybe they rather aim for very few copies they know these will sell out for sure even though it’s for a high price.

And with that I’ll leave that discussion because I don’t see much sense in it. It’s not like we’re aiming to get to a mutal point I think and that’s very fine. I also do respect that you aim for something different than I do (even though it might not seem by what I said before).

Since I mainly own regular editions I’m not familiar with all of their limited ones (especially also because I didn’t care about the releases except for the songs when they were out from 2008 to 2012) I don’t remember DIM’s one and wonder, if you mean DIM or mix it up with Beautiful Deformity (but non-native English speaker that I am I’m not certain what exactly holographic slipcase means).
If it was not about BD, then this is another one to mention.
And even MASS’s was something special even though I didn’t go for it and after seeing it unpacked I weren’t sad at all I didn’t do because it didn’t do anything for me at all.

I actually meant to say lenticular, not holographic. I do know what you mean by the crazy Beautiful Deformity LE box, but I was referring to Dim. I can’t seem to find my copy (I think I might have sold it a few years back…) but here’s a photo of the slipcase:

And this is the limited edition of Nil:

They spared no expense with velour and gold foil! Both of these editions aren’t very hard to find on Japanese music shops thankfully.

I DO however, still have a copy of Disorder that I cherish to this day!

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Ah, thanks a lot for clarifying.

I do own the limited one of NIL and it feels great, that’s true.
For Disorder I made it to get the last copy available in a shop here (NeoTokyo) of the regular edition some years back, they even got it from the shop in Munich to the one in Berlin while they thought it was already sold. So I’m very fine with this one. But I guess, I know what you mean about the limited one.

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I actually hesitate to post this one because I don’t want all three brain cells of the visual kei Twitter consciousness to run with this hot take out of proportion. But it’s one that I also think is worth considering, and as always you know I try to come with some proof and justification for my thoughts.

Anyway, my unpopular opinion is that Kisaki didn’t steal Kyo’s girlfriend.

Now you’re like “this is unpopular” but stick with me to the end. I’m going places. This rumor started because a few observations were tied together and this seemed like the logical conclusion to draw. Let’s go through them:

  1. Kisaki and Kyo were in several bands together.
  2. Kisaki and Kyo’s last band together was La:Sadie’s.
  3. Let’s assume there was some infidelity involving Kyo and his ex around the end of La:Sadie’s and the beginning of Dir en grey.
  4. It’s been mentioned that “it was the guitarist from one of his older bands” that was responsible for this. Kisaki does play bass guitar.
  5. They never worked together in another unit again.
I am including 3) because the early lyrics of Dir en grey suggest that Kyo was going through significant emotional trauma. From the lyrics of JEALOUS to the lyrical content of like 85% of GAUZE (which centers around love, loss, and emotions), whatever happened to Kyo was having an effect on him for quite some time.

While it does seem like it all comes together to put the crosshairs on Kisaki, let’s assume for a second that it’s not him. Who else could it be? I went searching and found another guitarist that not only fits the bill, but is far more likely to be the dick donor.

Let’s step back even further and go to a time before La:Sadie’s…to a band named Visnu. Visnu is one of Kyo’s older bands circa 1993. He formed this band with guitarist Seine (聖音), bassist Rei (麗) and drummer Masa. At some point Rei was replaced with eye (目). If you step back to Gesshoku, you can also throw guitarist Shuji into the mix. If you also consider the session band Haijin Kurobarazoku (廃人黒薔薇族), you can include guitarist #4 (ふぉー).

Any further than that has incomplete information and is a bit of a stretch to consider with what I’m about to say, so let’s consider this as our potential candidates. After Masquerade, Kyo went to form La:Sadie’s and #4 (ふぉー) and Seine (聖音) went on to form STELLA MARIA. STELLA MARIA and La:Sadie’s were active at around the same time and members had been in past bands, so it’s not an unreasonable stretch to assume that these bands were close. In fact, they even performed together at least once:

Eagle eyed fans will notice that this particular concert was within the last month or so of La:Sadie’s activity. It’s also the last concert that La:Sadie’s and STELLA MARIA played together. DIR EN GREY and STELLA MARIA played exactly one concert together, and this isn’t going to torpedo the point I’m making either. In fact, it makes it even stronger.

Also note that at no point did I say that we know that it happened before La:Sadie’s disbanded. I said it happened around the end of La:Sadie’s and the beginning of Dir en grey. This particular concert at CLUB QUATTRO happened after the demo recording of “Karma / Aoi Tsuki”, but before the release of MISSA and JEALOUS. In fact, these two concerts are only two months apart!

So if you are a bit flexible with the timeline and you’ve been following the clues so far, then you too might have come to the conclusion that the mystery man in question is Seine (聖音). He’s been in the most bands with Kyo (spanning several years in fact) so no doubt they were friends at one point. There were plenty of opportunities for Kyo, Kyo’s ex, Kisaki, and Seine to be in close proximity, on and off the stage. He’s a guitarist. He fits every point in the description we can come up with.

Considering that STELLA MARIA didn’t disband until 1999/06, it’s actually quite interesting that DIR EN GREY and STELLA MARIA never played more than one concert together. It’s entirely possible that The Infidelity happened sometime after this concert, with seeds being planted for several weeks to months prior to that. Kyo wasn’t really cruising down Heartbreak Highway until MISSA anyway - the lyrics to I’ll and Erode pop into my mind instantly - and then sometime after GAUZE I guess he got over it, because the lyrics to MACABRE are much more diverse in nature.

As to why I think La:Sadie’s broke up…I think it’s because KISAKI didn’t want to go major and the others did. Dir en grey went from new indie band to signed to a major label and working with YOSHIKI in two years. The intent to get big was always there for them. Kisaki, on the other hand, has been in so many indie bands featuring members that have gone on to be famous in their own right. He even ran UCP - a label dedicated to finding indie talent! He had multiple chances to go major and he never took them, so I can only conclude it’s because that’s not what he wanted.

There are also some clues on vk.gy that suggest this to be the case:


If they were already planning on winding down activities, then there’s no need for infidelity to be the reason behind the band’s dissolution. Which means there’s no reason to assume it happened strictly before Dir en grey. Which means that there’s very little reason to assume that it’s Kisaki. No need for conspiracies when simple explanations will do.

NOW TWITTER AND REDDIT, PLEASE DO NOT GO WITCH HUNT SEINE FOR SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED BEFORE MOST OF US WERE INTO THE SCENE. IT’S WATER UNDER THE BRIDGE NOW. I AM MERELY WRITING THIS TO BLUNT THE RUMOR THAT KISAKI STOLE KYO’S GIRLFRIEND AND PRESENT A REASONABLE ALTERNATIVE. DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS. OR DON’T. I’M NOT YOUR MOTHER.

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@zeus I always enjoy reading your takes but the research you put into this is stellar.

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This only took me 10 minutes with @koutetsuhime on the discord lmaoooo

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You say with me but really I mostly just brought up the old rumour itself lmao

Everything that I’ll be discussing for this post is in relation to this video. Please watch it in full if you haven’t.

I’ll start by being polite and saying hello to Finn, if this ever reaches you somehow. I am @Zeus, an absolute nobody on the internet who uses words good sometimes. I’ve been listening to metal almost all my life, and Japanese metal in particular since like 1999. I’ve been around a while. I haven’t heard everything but I’ve heard a lot. I only want to speak for myself, and anyone here that agrees with me will probably like the post. Also, I cannot keep anything short, so I apologize in advance for how long this is. But here goes.

I think who(m)ever introduced you to Japanese metal did you a complete and total disservice. But let’s start talking about things in chronological order so I don’t get confused.

I guess I’ll start with how someone on Twitter broke down Japanese music. They said it’s one of two things:

  1. A band that is playing a very high quality but mid version of whatever mainstream bands are doing at that time.
  2. Something completely off the wall batshit crazy.

I’m not even gonna argue with this. This is 100% facts but I feel it is still an incomplete picture. In fact, you even bring up the point that there are a lot of people out there who listen to Japanese metal because it’s Japanese, not because it’s metal. I also endorse this opinion. This was actually something I was going to type up into another hot take of my own, but I’ll summarize it here; I think that a vast majority of the visual-kei fan base - past and present - have some sort of sick para-social relationship with their favorite musicians. Once their obsession with the musician passes, the interest in the music fades and they move on to another genre where they can repeat the process. I saw it in 1999. I saw it in 2007. I saw it during the exodus from visual-kei to K-Pop. I see it in K-Pop too! I can probably find it on Twitter now without too much effort. It’s a thing, it’s gross, and it gives off a completely bad impression to a lot of people. I totally understand why it does. You mention this later on, so I wanna put that out there now.

The thing about the people that run in this circle specifically is that we are a bit more self-selecting. A lot of us are veterans in the scene and we’ve gotten over the phase of liking Japanese things purely for being Japanese. A lot of us here have surprisingly varied taste in music outside of Japan. I’ll be honest - I fell into Japanese music because of anime and because, at that time, I was desperately trying to avoid the treadmill of hip hop and rap that was taking young men like me and convincing them to make dumb decisions that would ruin their lives. You can read more about it here if I convince you by the end to come back and read more. But let’s not get off-topic.

The one thing I disagree with is the assertion around 3:13 where there isn’t anything inherently special and interesting about Japanese “things”. Since we’re talking about metal, I’ll limit it mostly to metal. I think there are inherently special and interesting things about Japanese metal that you won’t find outside of Japan too often, but these things are subtle and often require some explanation.

To keep it short, here is my explanation in a spoiler.

Musical theory is often approached from a European Renassiance context, with things like major pentatonic, minor pentatonic, Doremi etc. Musical theory is an attempt to explain everything possible within the world of music, but what any one artist chooses to focus on is a subset of that. Whatever an artist chooses to focus on is a mix of many things, including cultural influences.

Let’s take the D ichikosucho scale as an example. You’re probably like “what the fuck is that?”. It is a scale that is played: D - E - F# - G - G# - A - B - C# - (D). It’s D Major scale with an extra note - G#. This extra note creates dissonance that can create beautiful melodies if you play around with it. But it’s not quite D Lydian or D Mixolydian - D Lydian is D - E - F# - G# - A - B - C# - (D) and D Mixolydian is D - E - F# - G - A - B - C - (D). As you can see, it’s really a mix of both. And while it can be explained using European music theory terminology, this scale didn’t catch on over there. Instead, it found it’s roots in Chinese music, which made it’s way to Japan and then evolved into gagaku music. You can find a variation of this scale used in bluegrass and country music, but it’s predominantly used in Japan.

I found out about this scale by working backwards while trying to tab out this song. This one uses almost all of the notes in D ichikosucho.

jajaumakiden - YouTube
I hope you actually listen to some of this song, because I like it.

And this is far from the only scale used in Japanese music. A variation on ichikosucho is taishikicho. That one is D - E - F# - G - G# - A - B - B# - (D). I don’t have an off-hand example for that one but it exists. A third one is the koakuma progression, also known as the royal road progression or the odou shinkou progression. You can read more about it here, but it’s used to an absurd amount in contemporary Japanese pop music.

IV△7–V7–iii7–vi progression - Wikipedia

So basically to say that there’s nothing inherently special about Japanese metal because it’s Japanese is ignoring the centuries of culture and independent musical expression that still dominates their music today. They may take some things from us, but there are certain elements, expressions, tropes, and progressions that they use that really catch the ear of some people. And maybe they don’t have the musical theory background or the words to explain why, but that doesn’t invalidate their taste.

This also doesn’t function as a hall pass for those who are clearly in it for cute boys and not the music. Now back to the show.

Let’s skip to the part where you break down some common Japanese artists.

  • BABYMETAL - LMFAO! Do I have BABYMETAL in my music collection? Some of it, sure. Do I listen to it every day? Nope. My last.fm says I haven’t registered a single listen of BABYMETAL since May 30, 2015, and only 48 listens in total - most of which I assume is “Megitsune” because that’s the only song I like. I can’t take this band seriously.

  • MIYAVI - Hit the nail on the head perfectly. Amazing musician but his latest music is just not my cup of tea. When he started introducing rap, I backed off. I feel like if you step back into his indie days, you have to balance on a thin rope. Go too far back and his vocals are really rough. Go too far forward and the instrumentals lose charm. If I can give you another recommendation to sample, can you try this one from him? It’s my favorite song of his.

I’m also attempting to subtly sprinkle my music taste throughout this post to gain some kind of credibility here. He doesn’t rap here. I promise.

  • Crossfaith - “It sounds like American metal” 100% agreed - and to some the appeal of mixing American metal with Japanese lyrics and English with Japanese pronunciation is there. But it’s not for me either. I also think it’s very mid.

  • Crystal Lake - I also, 100% endorse your opinion on Crystal Lake. It is basically Architects! :rofl:

  • Ryoko Hirosue - I have never heard of her! But this is just not for me! LOLOLOLOL! It sounds like an opening credits to a TV show for children! I do not like this or the Western counterpart!

  • Fear, and Loathing in Las Vegas - No. They are absolute gutter trash IMO.

  • Malice Mizer - Absolutely legendary band in the visual kei scene. I love what they’ve done for the scene and how they pushed the boundaries - they were unusual for even their time - but I honestly do not listen to them more than once in a blue moon. It’s a respect thing from me more than an “oh my god, this is such amazing music!”. In general, I have to be in a specific mood for 90’s visual kei. Also, your description of the band had me rolling.

And you know what’s funny? You pose the proverbial question “would you like visual kei if it were white guys playing the music?” and I’m gonna punt back and say you don’t need to pose hypothetical questions, because YOHIO proved that some people will latch on to it, and a lot of people will ridicule it for it’s flaws meanwhile listening to Japanese music that sounds literally the exact same. So you are right there too.

  • Maximum the Hormone - Look my guy, the nail is already in the wood. You can stop hammering now LMFAO! I got into them because of Death Note too, but I only really like Zetsubou Billy and F - the ending to Death Note and a song dedicated to Frieza from DBZ. Everything else is fun metalcore, but I only listen to them once in a while.

  • PALEDUSK - Don’t listen to them. And this snippet you showed sounds like garbage.

  • BAND-MAID - I liked the song “Warning!” but I have never gravitated to them.

Are we on the same page? Can I introduce you to what I listen to?

You’re like “this guy right here just dropped anime shit on me tryna convince me?” Trust and believe, this is six minutes of instrumental power metal. It’s a cover of a theme from a game, which is why the anime artwork is there, but if there wasn’t an anime girl on the front you would not know this was Japanese right away. Consider this my attempt to disarm your expectations.

Another set of covers from a completely different set of video games (Shin Megami Tensei), but this guitarist worked all of the battle themes from various games into one six minute shred fest. I love how the rhythm guitar keeps everything together and how unusually bright the guitar tone is.

I post this band every opportunity I get. Metal? No. Visual kei? Arguably. Great music? Most definitely. These guys never missed and the sad thing is, even though they were visual kei they weren’t playing a flavor of music that was popular at the time so they faded away. I will never stop talking about them.

The Kween. Shiina Ringo is great. Tokyo Jihen is great too. If you ever watched Adult Swim around the 00’s, you might recognize the introduction to this song. Think of the white and red bump before and after each commercial break. Also, her English is quite good.

Let’s step into visual kei metal for a bit. You can find a lot of bands that sound similar all over the world - and I would love to hear some - but these guys just hit a spot for me that a lot of heavy bands don’t get to. Also, don’t listen to what anyone else tells you. CHEDOARA is their only album. There is no such thing as MISC. or the DIMLIM collection album. There is no war in Ba Sing Se.

Dir en grey has been around for 25 years. No doubt you’ve probably heard of them. No doubt someone probably sent you some mallcore shit that turned you off. These guys can play a lot of different stuff, but they were always better when they slowed down and got emotional. 腐海 (Fukai) is one of my favorite deep cuts of theirs - it’s a song you’re not going to be recommended by just anyone. Is it “distinctly Japanese”? Hell no, these guys were trying to chase an American sound, but they weren’t quite there yet at this point and where they ended up along the way is just as interesting in it’s own right.

If you’ve noticed at this point, I give zero fucks about visuals. I either like the aesthetics or ignore them. And as much as Dir en grey is one of my favorite bands, their visuals were never the primary, secondary, or even tertiary reason why I liked them. I just liked them because they sounded so varied and different from track to track, album to album, that by the time the depth of their discography hit me I was impressed with their musicianship.

I’m throwing these guys in specifically because around 19:59 you were interested in whoever was composing BABYMETAL songs, and I’ve heard rumors that the guitarist Leda from this band has had a hand in some of their music. DELUHI sounds nothing like BABYMETAL. Think more power metal but with a vocalist this time. Also visual kei. Are they the most unique thing ever? No, but they set the bar for musicianship within visual kei at a much higher level than expected. Also, I am trying to separate visuals from the music here as much as possible.

Onmyouza have heavy visual aesthetics but they do not identify as visual kei. This is best described as Japanese Iron Maiden with a splash of Japanese influence. Oh, and the vocalist Kuroneko has an absolutely stunning voice - she melts me man. The bassist provides a nice contrast, but she’s the spotlight. Oh, and of course I like Iron Maiden too :slight_smile:

Last one, because I want to show what is capable when you take what I described earlier and push it to the extreme. Enter Wagakki Band. Sometimes these guys can be gimmicky, but this song floors me. The first time I heard this, it felt like a Pouncing Tiger, Dropkick Dragon to the chest. I was not ready. Still love this song to bits, but I don’t listen to this band as much as I used to. Oh, and if any other non-Asian artist tried to cover this they’d get hit with the Problematic Stick courtesy of Twitter - you won’t get this anywhere except Japan.

Hopefully I’ve gained a bit of cred by this point. I was posting a lot of these examples because I wanted to get across three things:

  1. Japanese music doesn’t have to be weeby - and in fact the vast majority of Japanese music that is out there that is actually good just isn’t amplified.
  2. I’m the furthest from your typical Japanese music fan. You probably understand more of the language than I do!
  3. The reinterpretation of Western music mixed with the traditional influences of Japanese music in various degrees can create some interesting takes on already established genres.

Thanks for reading. I look forward to watching THE TRUTH ABOUT JAPANESE METAL 2… at some point in the future Finn.

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@zeus I could NOT care less for Kisaki or Kyo and I still read that for the “well written essay” factor. And I don’t intend to watch that video but I still read all of that because I am the person without a musical theory background nor vocabulary and you put in such eloquent words things I want to say (aka the way you explain why some Japanese music feels Different because of diverse influences - meanwhile I just agree when ppl say I enjoy “weird” music lol) .

Looking forward to the next essay now - particularly because I have Too Many hot takes on the whole visuals/parasocial relationships thing going on in vk and Asian music and would love to write an essay of my own (but I need the Inspiration and free time) :eyes:

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Very well written, and clearly explained breakdown. And I agree with most of it. I do always feel an aversion to Finn though… He’s smart, smart enough to have been right a lot of the time. But at least in him, it’s I think partially led to him being pretty stubborn-headed and assuming he’s right about things he’s actually wrong about, and he comes off as smug about it.

Small nitpick though on the taishikicho scale - B# and C are enharmonic (different names, same note). So what you have written currently actually has you play the same note twice. I’m not familiar with this scale in particular, but I’m GUESSING that it should be …B# - C# - (D)?

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I got the specifics of that scale from here.

I ended up finding this same page about a minute after replying. It says C# in there, both in the list on top and on the fretboard markers.

the oversized under eyelid with black eyeliner trend in vkei is not it

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I just got around to fixing it, thanks!

…do you mean the aegyo sal thing? (the first person I thought of was Ruimaru but idk if I got that)

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Listening to Laputa’s techno-era which used to make me cringe but now I think its fantastic? Shinkai, brand new colour, final, kiss in the clouds, taiyou to aoi tsuki are all bangers.
It’s so wonderfully dated but also feel quite ahead of its time, given how popular electronics became in post 2010’s vk. Gazette’s division feels particularly indebted to this era. If you strip something like Derangement of the metalcore riffs/screaming, I think bits and pieces sound like several different laputa tracks (the processed verse vocals + melodic chorus, treble-laden guitar lines, heavy lead guitar emphasis, drum machines, thick synthlines).

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I despise the vocalist of SiM and whoever writes the lyrics, they’re on par with what a 13 year old would write and they dress like 2010 faux-emo never died (I know they started around that time but boys, it’s 2022, give it up)
Yes, I am bitter that they got to do the SNK opening.

I know it sounds stupid given some of the outfits VK artists wear but it’s just so embarrassing seeing that greaseball of a singer rocking his favourite My Chemical Romance cosplay.

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Of course! I hope I didn’t come across pedantic or anything - a wire just snapped in my brain when I saw that and I thought maybe it was possible we were dealing with a notation similar to how music is notated in Germany and some other parts of Europe. What we call Bb they call B, and what we call B they call H, therefore making B# and C NOT enharmonic in their notation system. Since that’s true there, it wasn’t totally out of the realm of possibility that the scale you mentioned was using a similar system!