So i’m seeing people say in Euphobia’s thread that black metal and vkei aren’t ever done together - first off, i think Madman’s Esprit; they’re hardly unnoticed aren’t they?
If there’s others, please tell me bc it’s definitely something i think there’s potential in and would want to hear more of.
But also, the reason i made this thread - i didn’t want to hijack another band’s thread to talk about my music, but i DO want to mention mine bc, haven’t i done this? Or at least attempted it…
If you’re so inclined, please check out countless funerals for spring by reset memory, on spotify or youtube music.
Don’t let the electronics throw you off, after 0:53 is where the intro/bridge ends and the drums and guitars come in.
I don’t want to overpromise, but for me growing up black metal meant Ulver, Arcturus, Solefald, and Fleurety - and nowadays Deafheaven, Liturgy, Blackbraid, and Batushka.
I about gave myself a hernia trying to keep up downstrokes at 220bpm just for the signal to be squashed to hell and back with a Sunn emulating Acapulco Gold, but eh that’s how i wanted it to be.
Idk on one hand i’m kinda sneaking in self-promo under the guise of talking about genres, but on the other hand i genuinely want to hear more of this; i hope at least my 11 minute mess of a track proves my interest in these scenes’ intersection is more than superficial!
For me the primary reference for black metal in VK is: ENDLESS DISMAL MOAN as Yukina mentioned, Diabolica, Noisia (the one with the dude who would later be in Ass ‘n’ Arrow - they had a few tracks that are straight up orthodox BM), Dark Insanity (who’ve dropped the more VK elements to their aesthetic in recent years)
I’d also argue that a lot of lofi kote stuff is unintentionally black metal-esque in the same way they often unintentionally reinvented deathrock and shoegaze by way of copying bigger bands that earnestly incorporated that kinda influence (kuroyume making directly goth-influenced music results in new bands copying them with little reference to the original reference etc).
But I groan when I see the “black metal deathcore” stuff because that just isn’t black metal to me? I don’t consider myself a purist but it just doesn’t sound right to me. It’s overproduced, overstyled, always has that veneer of ironic detachment to it of the same vein as completely non-metal acts who’ll like have a black metal version of their logo for tshirts as a gag. It feels like these bands are usually 90% deathcore/metalcore etc with the corpsepaint slapped on top because it’s a shortcut to presenting an arresting image.
Very much agree bc even for bands like Naitomea’s earliest works, i want to describe their aesthetic and language of sound as black metal, even if they’re not officially saying they’re pulling from that scene
re: deathcore etc - in my mind there’s two branches of black metal: super-metal (Emperor, Dimmu Borgir, Immortal), and anti-music (Ulver, Darkthrone, Fleurety). My dumb names come from the first branch maintaining metal riffs and sometimes instrument virtuosity, just with a harsher aesthetic (visual and sound), whereas the latter seems to challenge music convention as far as they can manage, eschewing riffs for those song-long tremolo picks a la surf, as well as pushing the harshness and distortion up to and past the point of what’s listenable.
I think the first half of these (and sure it’s not a harsh absolute split, but drawing lines in the sand to try understanding music history better is what i do) is more ready to collaborate with and be influenced by metal and metalcore genres, so it’s come to represent black metal moreso to people outside the scene.
And that, imho, is why black metal seems kinda bizarrely (from my perspective) lumped in with other extreme aesthetics like death metal, deathcore, etc.
Like deviloof for example seems extremely steeped in deathcore what with the gutterals and squeals and crazy complexity, rythmically and shredilly.
But something like 夜宴 by Naitomea, even if they’ve never claimed black metal influence, that has so much more similarity to the genre i know in its abrasive but emotional production.
I don’t know, whenever people bring up so-called black metal influences in vk, I just don’t hear it. In older bands, most of the time it just sounds like old-school hardcore or crust influence to me at most (which would align with dudes like Sugizo namedropping Discharge for example). In newer bands it’s just a mixture of deathcore and metalcore to me, with maybe vocals somewhat emulating a BM style. And for projects like Endless Dismal Moan and such, I don’t perceive them as vk at all. So uhhh idk. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Have any of y’all heard Min Tid Skal Komme? An absolute classic with rich atmosphere that i introduce to friends as “more like a fever dream about black metal”
Even back in the 90s in Norway, there was such width to the scene and what made up black metal - some parts of this, the music as in the rhythm and melody is more jazz or psychedelic rock than anything, but you hear it in the EQ and the reverb that it’s black metal.
I love diru but when i hear perfume of sins, i hear a track with fast blast beats yeah, but the reverb isn’t frosty so it’s not (to me) black metal
Also if i’m just throwing out bands that i think more people would like, check out this unnamed demo from the Czech Republic (iirc) - tell me if i’m crazy but even tho this band has obviously no ties at all to vkei, there’s something very Nagoya / art kei to at least my ears when i hear this band - their guitar work seems to have something in common with Aie’s
I guess i’m just posting these cuz sometimes people will say “this sounds nothing like black metal” and here i am confused bc to me i can about name the Fleurety track they’re quoting.
Buutttt i don’t know shit about the riffs-and-metal side of black metal, so that makes me wonder if someone who knows black metal mostly by that side (emperor, gorgoroth, etc) won’t recognize a style as black metal that i would
These are as far as I am aware the only tangible black metal connections in visual kei
Em Grief quite notoriously took Dimmu Borgir and Cradle of Filth as a source of “inspiration”. People might’ve found it funny at the time, but now it stands as the one actual, legitimate example of a 2000s vk band trying their hand at mixing the vk sensibility with the elements of the classic, uh, mallgoth norsecore. People using the “classic” black metal term should bear in mind that within the scene itself, something like Master’s Hammer and Celtic Frost is also considered classic and it’s not an uniform sound. Norsecore is not the black metal sound (much like corpsepaint or lo-fi production alone doesn’t make bm and a similarity doesn’t automatically suggest a connection). Anyway this song is kind of cool in retrospect
The existence of black metal was once acknowledged in the visual kei scene when Kisaki used the French band Anorexia Nervosa on one of the Undercode video releases. I can’t for the life of me remember which one it was, but I’m pretty sure it’s on youtube. The fact that Kisaki’s a fan of this stuff suggests that he could’ve used it as an inspiration for his own projects, which would be an interesting thing to ask him about, if anyone had the chance to do so.
Another one is of course Madmans Esprit, but they’re an outlier for multiple reasons. Both myself and mutuals have had interactions with the guy irl so I’m confident that I can speak to his influences a little bit without making unjustifiable assumptions and spreading rumors. ME started out as a black metal project at the end of the DSBM wave with significant influence from the prog rock influenced Niklas Kvarforth’s Shining. I think it’s particularly Shining’s influence that gave ME the musical mobility to transition between prog and post-punk that feature in the pre-suicidol material. From Suicidol on the band assumes the “Depressive Suicidal Blackened Pop” in a more concrete way and moves on to working with influence from Dir en grey in particular (which is also one of his favorites). Kyuho’s been able to retain the a kind of a free spirit when it comes to the way he structures the songs and the techniques he employs, but over time it’s the pop that has subsumed the rest and legitimately their closest musical compatriot is probably Dir en grey. That being said, ME is both a band born out of a fairly legitimate black metal association and has also solidified their vk credentials by adopting a way of marketing closer to vk and performing with real vkei bands in Japan. The band’s still an outlier since Korea has practically no black metal scene and they aren’t based in Japan to seamlessly integrate themselves with vk.
