I’m not even sure about that. There’s no sexual attraction which doesn’t mean there’s none at all. The visual aspect about visual kei gives room for way more than just sexual attraction (even though I recognized that’s what most people jump to pretty easily and fast).
1 Like
I am gonna jump in here in a wonky territory I think, but
I think the problem in that is also that people have just gotten “unhinged”
A lot of sexual stuff has gotten more and more normalized by mainstream media and that pushes and showcases in those subcultures in the end too.
8 Likes
I agree in principal, but I think it’s less “have gotten unhinged” and more “the continued interconnectedness of the world allows the unhinged folks to have a bigger platform/voice than they used to.”
As to the furthering of sexuality in media, I actually think (at least here in the USA for me) we’re living in one of the most puritan periods of media since the Hays Code, but that’s sort of a different and VERY tangential debate lol
2 Likes
True, the most unhinged people also tend to be the most puritanical-facing (until their search history gets leaked)
Ah yes… the CLASSIC projection tactic. Y’know, it reminds me of someone who’s often crusade against lolisho content, only for people to find out that they’ve been collecting actual cp all along.
2 Likes
Sorry in advance for the long ass answer. I hope some parts don’t sound too rude. It is absolutely meant as friendly discussion and not stirring up shit and I guess you do exspect some disagreement in “unpopular opions”. 
I think this is not really a good argument. You said yourself we don’t really have a definition of what makes something vk. For me this does not lead to the clonclusion that when one person says it is vk, than it is. It can be vk for you and something else for another person. It’s not necessary for everyone to agree on this.
You can say “this is vk” and enjoy it as much as you want. The opinion of other people does not effect your enjoyment.
Let’s say we all agree it’s vk. The people who don’t like it won’t start liking it. If they dislike it because they prefer male bands, they don’t like the idol concept or just don’t like the music doesn’t really make a difference.
Who is not letting you have it? Like what are we actively doing to prevent you from having this?
If this is not catered to us but to straight men why do you need us (the part of the scene who is attracted to bandomen) to accept it?
I absolutely get that you enjoy it and it’s great if you found something new. And honestly I happy for you. This is not meant to sound mean or anything.
I am sure you don’t mean this in any negative way but there are so many things that are catered to male fantasies. And there are only a few corners like vk, BL and whatever booktok has going on that cater to female fanaties. So I could also ask you to leave this to us, which I would not. It just reads a bit like you are not aware of this. And I don’t wanna say “you should gave been aware!!1!1”.
Woman are sexualized all the time by straight men. And I personally think that sexualization is not inherently bad. It’s a natural part of human reproduction. But woman are so much more sexualized than men and I’d argue the heavy sexualization of men in the scene is woman taking something back. Woman are constatly shamed for their sexuality and we are a long way from equality in that regard.
I know that is not your lived expirience as a straight men and this isn’t at all meant to sound condescending. I am absolutely sorry if it does 
It’s just meant to explain a diffrent point of view.
And I think it also comes into account here:
Why would you moderate it diffrently? Maybe because you were socialised to view woman’s sexuality as more shameful or for it to need more “protection”. We all were socialised like this.
For example you would not allow naked female breast, right? Because they are viewed as sexual by society. But they are not inherently sexual.
Fun anecdote: in Berlin’s public pools men and woman are allowed to sunbath/swim topless because a court ruled it was discriminating that woman were forced to cover up.
(This is an extrem example and I want to add the context that Germany is an especially open country when it comes to nakedness. )
I am also not a fan of exspecting modesty from woman. That is part of the problem about woman beimg shamed for their sexuality. But it’s a bit complicated because especially in the context of idol groups it’s hard to tell how comfortable they are with showing themselves like this. If they like it, I am fine with everybody wearing nothing but bikinis (or just bikini pants if at a pool in Berlin). The girls and Sena.
I might be wrong but I disagree. I don’t think men getting into female vk idol groups will help the rest of the scene. It seems more likely that men will stay in their idol corner. And when the female fans get more into this corner it might even makes it unattractiv to men. As someone said already (but I can find the post right now): things liked by woman (and especially teenage girls) are often seen as less valued.
This is true BUT I would argue that the matter is a bit more complicated and it is to simple to explain it only with the sexual part.
If this was the only reason there would be much more male vk idol groups and they would be thriving. But the goats are still DEG and Gaze. I think the idol concept is just not everyones cup of tea. I can’t really tell you why but I like it better if only one guy is on vocal and the rest playes an instrument than all of them dancing 
And even if we thirst a lot here and it might not look like it but the music does matter! Is Toshiya my fave because I think he is hot? Probably. But I also do enjoy the music. I couldn’t even tell you a fave from Kizu, Jigsaw or Amai Bouryoku but I enjoy their stuff so much.
So yeah this is probably complex!
Yesterday or the day before, there was one post calling the mostly male crowd for one of the new idol groups creepy and I get that this was offensive. But wasn’t really against the band itself. (Btw when I said it’s funny that the crowd was mostly male, I didn’t mean to imply anything negative. It was just an observation).
And tthere was that other person stating they hate idols. But honestly it was one person. So I think we are quite civil here. It might be a whole other story on tiktok or twitter but since you posted here. Maaaaybe wrong audience? 
Or just a bit of ranting? 
We all need that sometimes, I guess.
My final complain 
The photo shooting of Sakito was published in a music magazin along side an interview with him. Nothing about that is porn. Why would it make a diffrence if cloth or his guitar covers his junk? 
It’s not like someone is posting the pictures from a bandomens onlyfans account. And I think the Gackt stuff we had the other day was much worse.
Also, and this is again me being very German (again), there is so much violence in vk MVs and I never see any complain about that. And it always bothers me if people threat sexuality as something more dangerous than violence. 
6 Likes
This post is so true. And for some reason it takes me back to that comment made by Yohio about Lady Gaga: “I don’t like Lady Gaga. It’s good that she is so visual, but I hate sexual elements in music, that’s why I dislike Western pop music. Great Japanese artists don’t sing about sex.”
He obviously had no clue what he was saying, but for some reason it’s so acceptable for men to sing about sex (not only visual kei artists), but when a female artist does it it can be seen as controversial.
6 Likes
Oh that’s real?? I always heard it said that people ran w/ a half translation
I always have some level of doubt when English media says someone’s taken on an identity based on something they’ve translated - but if it was intentional on Utada’s part then my doubt’s counterproductive
Yeah, it’s true about them. I just found out few weeks ago when I was looking things up a bit about the pronoun situation in Japan and came across Utada Hikaru listed as nonbinary.
3 Likes
This is something i feel laces every interaction i have w/ idol groups/music - to an extent, all artists, but mostly womens’ idol groups
Like the BiS PV where the women sing and look happy naked in aokigahara, i enjoy and respect that one bc i’ve seen Pour Lui talk at length about that being her idea, her plan that the group was behind, regardless of management. Aside from looking aesthetically nice, i appreciate the conversation it puts in the viewers’ head of the cute scenes in that place. I think it’s a good piece of media. Rihanna’s bitch better have my money, to use one outside Japan, love it too for similar reasons
But ever since BiS’s producer made WACK into a more established production company managing like 50+ young artists incl minors, i’m way more like, wary(?) of what i’m looking at; there’s some videos that feel way too Dan Schneidery for comfort i never want to see again - but groups like BiSH were career starters for eg Aina The End, who i hope goes on as far as Utada Hikaru or Hamasaki Ayumi
All that to say, a lot of my defensiveness for that scene is i feel sometimes the groups performing get the indignation for how they look / what they do thrown back on them
(I mean i’ve not got anyone from here in mind when i’m complaining btw, i’m kinda talking about the internet at large & things people say as coworkers etc irl)
So when i personally see a vkei themed idol group, aside from thinking hey maybe i’ll like this familiar music w/ this style of vocals, there’s also a thought that every idol group that comes up not outright exploited in that nickelodeon/disney way makes it a bit easier for an upstart young singer to have more options what they can do
I’m not a Japanese woman, i can’t say from personal exp lol but i’ve heard it said that before BiS it was spend years in indie idol hell to hope to make it to solo singer in ten years, or be already connected in music, or give up - and post BiS a whole genre/scene’s opened up with a lot less rules on how you gotta sound and who can be your management
So that’s some personal context why i’m happy to see a group like gellyminatti or however they’re called lol spring up, even tho they’re not exactly my favourite sort of band to listen to myself and likely might not be most people here’s either - i still hope they find success and it brings other new musicians and fans to vkei at large
3 Likes
That’s exactly the kind of infighting that led to the downfall of the original punk movement. I see lots of parallels between being “unable to define what punk is” to “new sounds bring new fans and alienate old ones” to “big labels see opportunities within the punk scene to expand and make more money, which brings outside influences and expectations”. We should avoid that infighting.
If a band says they are visual kei, then they are! And they are visual kei until they no longer identify as one. That’s my definition. Not everything in visual kei has to be for everyone, so it’s entirely fine if there are some things that pander more to one crowd than another. Everyone should co-exist.
I’ve been floating around these forums long enough to suspect that band members, management agencies, and others associated with the scene lurk here. The things that we discuss here can and do have impacts! There are also things often lost in context. If messages are translated and negative sentiments are received, such as “x isn’t visual kei” or “y band sucks”, these guys can and do take it to heart!
I would hate to see an entire new vein of visual kei disappear because a few of the loudest voices in the room proclaimed their displeasure, especially a flavor of visual kei that markets to me that has never existed before. So I’m using my soapbox and very loud voice to promote some positivity. These new types of bands are visual kei, and they are welcome, even if they’re not for everyone.
I’ve left it to y’all since 1999. 
I think you are going in a different direction than I was going with this post. Sexuality is actually quite a small component of my observation. There’s not a lot of female presence in visual kei. Not a lot of female band members, or female aesthetics, or female perspectives pushed in the lyrics and promotional videos. I think this is key to visual kei expanding in new directions. I don’t necessarily want more sexualization in visual kei - I’m good with where it is and could actually do with less - but I just want women present. I like women. I like looking at women. I like hearing from women. A lot of the satisfaction that I get from listening to non-vk is precisely this. Some of my favorite artists include Onmyou-za, Mari Hamada, and Shiina Ringo! Powerful female voices, both literally and lyrically, and they have great aesthetics too!
So put some of that in my visual kei!
This is the not very well defined line that I explained to @Anon308. We need a rule against porn or else someone will post it and say it’s not against the rules, but we’ve never had to exercise that rule so truthfully it’s not well-defined. And since I’ve never had to think about it, I don’t have a really good answer. And since women aren’t really present in visual kei, it almost never comes up outside of this context.
So in some aspects it’s like I’m asking for more work for myself, but I think it would be worth it!
Once again, it has nothing to do with modesty and everything to do with presence. Women are not present in the music-making aspects of visual kei. Look at our tag system for proof.
And this covers all news sources. So our scene has an inherently male slant when it comes to the talent, more so than most other scenes I’m in. I can’t think of too many other scenes where the proportion of male talent to female talent is skewed 4:1.
There’s room for everyone on the boat. And as @rsm_rain pointed out earlier, the crossover appeal is already there:
This also sounds really reminiscent of threads circa 2002-2004, when kote was dying out and nu-metal was taking over. A lot of people did not think that dropping sounds that made visual kei unique and adopting “American metal” aesthetics and sounds would do anything for the scene. No one was really happy to see new sounds and influences disrupt the status quo. I even remember people saying visual kei was gonna die in a few years if that kept up.
Yet here we are. Still kicking.
Idol stuff ain’t my cup of tea either, but I don’t want to stop that from potentially developing into something I do like! I never liked oshare, or kirakira, but I never let my dislike stop other people from enjoying An Cafe!
We are civil. A lot of the scene is not unfortunately. And every so often, whether it be a Reddit thread or Twitter caps, I’m reminded of this unfortunate fact.
I didn’t want to equate Sakito’s photo shoot with porn. It’s not. But if you’re ever at all unsure about whether something is safe to link, err on the safe side and don’t. Comes back to that discussion on the “line” and where we as mods need to step in and say “this is too much and this is not too much”. Which is never going to be a consistent conversation to have, so we just take it as it comes.
Not to ignore this point, but I specifically only talked about my experiences. I would look mega foolish trying to talk about the experiences of non-binary folk while not being non-binary myself. I was leaving the conversation open for others to add on, not trying to minimize the existence of others.
2 Likes
Yeah same as Zeus, it’s not purposeful omission so much as not trying to talk on exps i don’t live
If someone came out as nb in Japanese (idk even if there’s a direct translation for this or not!) and it was written about them that they weren’t, i’d be bothered the same way. So it’s not Utada saying they’re nb that’s a problem for me - i’d heard elsewhere that this wasn’t the case, but if you know the artist better than me you’re working with better information!
A lot of time when i talk to people i know i’ll say “men” & “non-men” bc that’s usually the distinction i’m intending to make - main reason i don’t do so here is bc it’s an international forum, not everyone’s first language is English.
Once i had someone tell me i shouldn’t be using the word “cis” (i was describing myself) around general audiences without being prepared to offer everyone context on how cisgender came to be defined and how it’s used - a few interactions like that have me defaulting to the most general words possible unless i know already who i’m talking to
I mean not trying to @ you for saying you don’t feel seen in how i’ve talked, that’s fair as i’ve not had anything to say about nb people specifically, but hopefully my intended message can come across of: after years of seeing almost all men in this scene i love, i’m excited when anyone who’s not men, whether women, non-binary, or otherwise, makes an appearance as well!
editing to add: this is one of the specific reasons i keep listening to DazzlingBad wanting to like them btw; i think i’ve heard iT say something to the effect of they’re not male or female just neither (???) but that’s extremely filtered thru my bad memory on top of fan translations. So i would feel way out of place for me to be saying “hey iT says they’re nonbinary so they count as representation!” but privately i think however they are, they’re feeling a niche and exploring a concept that’s not much done before, and so is cool for me to follow as a fan!
1 Like
Oh thank you btw for contributing to my not-very-scientific study!
This line in particular was very interesting to me bc i’d not thought yet about what’s around the shoot having an influence on its perception
1 Like
I wrote a long ass text and deleted it because I think I can put it much more simple:
Sometimes being female is enough female perspective for a day 
and then I put on a song sung by a guy in make-up and leather pants about how painful love is… or how he will fuck my parents one day
If you love to see female vk artists all power to you 
support the hell out of them!
I know all of this comes from a point of love for woman from you but I guess vk is what it is because this is what the majority of female fans made it.
3 Likes
This makes sense, i can see this!
Personally i love what vkei is now & i think that’s due to the unique dynamic it’s got thanks to being driven as much as it is for female fans
Me personally, & i imagine Zeus as well, it’s just cool to see also some of the opposite; non-male artists writing to male and/or non-male audiences - i like getting to hear all of these
I think all of us posting are almost entirely in agreement anyway lol, at least to me i imagine we are! I don’t imagine it’s arguing so much as i like reading y’all’s thoughts/perspectives and hearing how some of what i say/think comes across
3 Likes
If you mean “ignoring” in the sense of bandmen I can say pretty safely we were all trying to oversimplify things to the lowest common denominator to drive a point vaguely, but when I said “men/male bandmen” in the context of vk read that as AMAB for sure ie I don’t know the gender identity of every bandmen out there but I do know everyone’s AMAB except for exist trace and newer idol groups. And they are, or at least were, read as men as a whole.
If you mean in the sense of fans, also gross generalizations to straight cis people assuming that’s the majority. Lol I wouldn’t even assume that’s the majority of vk fans but.
1 Like
On everything else, there are a lot of parallel discussions to be had here it seems, from the inherent value of idol music (the old discussion) and whether the company decides everything or not (generally not) and whether it’s ethical or not ; to the sexualizaton bit I’ve said enough on and am on board with “not always” ; to changes inside a genre and how it appeals or doesn’t to others (personally, give me Ancafe over any nu metal vk band any day) and whether things existing together can dissolve something or not (a whole debate)
About idols and vk having intersection points yeah that’s what I was saying like 10 years ago and people wanted my head over it lol
But the point I really wanted to bring up as I did bring up before was: I get that you like female artists doing vk-adjacent stuff now and so do I but where were y’all when this:
Or this:
Happened? “You’re just throwing your teenage faves” Bitch I Am lol, but seriously now. My most listened artist of 2024 so far has likely been:
And the one thing I perceive from actually liking female artists just as artists with 0 sexual intent is that generally they’re just not taken half as seriously - and it’s a way worse problem in rock - it’s not just Japanese ones. They’re not just artists , suddenly they’re female artists like being female somehow has to mean … something. And this something generally means they’re worse is the assumption. This is all very related to the whole “my taste > your taste” crap and how others shape our tastes and perception. What I’m trying to say is female artists doing vk-adjacent stuff that doesn’t get to be called vk for one reason or another has been a thing for many years. But not being called vk isn’t necessarily bad I mean I don’t think Marilyn Manson hates not being vk lol. That’s a point I was talking about just the other day - I hate how long it took me to check vk artists I ended up liking because the fans’ attitude of my taste > yours got in my nerves. And at the end of the day maybe I find it ingenuine to suddenly like an idol group that doesn’t actually play unlike (hypothetical) your vk faves, just because they happen to be cis women and maybe they’ll do a bikini shoot or something. I see they’re being valued for being female artists not as artists essentially. Sorry if my words are kinda messy. Like being female in a male-centric scene that’s been male-centric for ages is the only thing they have got going for them … it doesn’t seem like everyone would like them if theyre men doing the same is my point tbh… and that sucks.
A lot of thoughts huh thanks for coming to my TED Talk
3 Likes
Spinning this on repeat:
That reminds me, I haven’t listened to buriguri in a while. Should change that.
Nah, say what you will but you know what I mean - I’m talking about the reputation here. I say replace my stuff with basically whatever floats ur boat (lol I shared the female equivalent of what floats my boat which generally is NOT what floats people in this forums’ boats. But I will be listening to Tetsu!Malice Mizer and Yoshiko Sai with the same enthusiasm even) - and you’ll see the male stuff is generally, well, taken more seriously. There isn’t the layer of oh it’s cool because it’s a man doing this thing.
And particularly in vk it’s been a thing to only have male (AMAB) artists for a long while. So when people don’t want that to change that’s the point I can’t agree nor disagree. I think it’s good as it is and people who like underground idols have underground idols to enjoy. Or people who like whatever, for whatever they like in vk there will certainly be at least one female artist doing the same thing but not labeling it vk lol. But I guess that would change the scene further. I don’t like nu metal so that wasn’t a welcome change for me (still literally in love with the Yokan PV reshaped my perception of the world, if DEG had remained Yerg Ne Rid I would collect cheki) but yeah people will like different stuff. Who is right, who is wrong? Well, nobody. Huh.
As an added sidenote taking into account that fangirls kinda shaped vk in its early days as @CervaCannibale mentioned, and some of the changes have been … in the sense of making it a more masculine space (like how nu metal has more male artists and fans usually) changing it further in that direction might be downrighting alienating to the older fans - but whether that’s ethical or not … is a discussion for every realm of life lmao. If the older fans won’t be on board with that because the new thing isn’t their thing, they’re not wrong for that either. But sometimes people will deliberately act conservative and that’s just and fair. Generally my opinion is that things can exist together, but that’s not how it usually goes in practice ; so both sides have a point really.
1 Like
Okay i’m really sympathetic to this argument and this isn’t a way i’d want to make any artist or their fans (or even casual observers) feel
I’d say rn that adequately describes my relationship with/at the idol-kei groups we’ve been talking about. I should listen to them! I will soon, but i’m a bit annoying about not wanting to listen to new music for the first time until I’m at my studio with no distractions bc you only get that first listen once
But Exist Trace is a great example for me bc i lovvveee everything up through Twin Gate; their first album was very focused, dark, and one of the last outreaches of the kote kei sound before 90s kote became more revival. Twin Gate was a great transition to melodic metal, and in between were some very emotive, melodic EPs that bridged those sounds. I could write paragraphs, and their gender isn’t among the list of the most appreciated things about them for me!
Since after Twin Gate i don’t like their music, i mean it’s not something i put on for myself, bc it doesn’t sound like vkei, or not like vkei i want to hear. But whatever, they’re still cool artists making cool music! I’m sure they like what they do and have their fans, and i still have that respect for them being in the scene as trailblazers.
So when i don’t have a personal relationship w/ the music, when i’m looking from afar, that’s when i can just see people by their descriptions - but that doesn’t mean there’s not the chance to get a lot more invested if i do!
Actually someone was just posting in another thread about a band, idk their kanji but i think Konton Shoujo? And instantly i got interested in them bc their cover art had a cool style and their makeup looks more like the 2000s, my fav time in the scene - so they’ve shot up to the top of my ‘next to listen to’ list
If i end up liking them i’m sure i’ll have more reasons why then, but sometimes tbh i like having that superficial hook “vkei band of women” to help me end up curious about them specifically over all the other interesting bands floating around my attention
2 Likes