I’m not the biggest fan of this band but I need an actual explanation as to what’s going on in his mind.
Is this something he does regularly? Are we okay with this?
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I think he does, part of the reason i had to take a break from them is his antics. Hiro has always been kind of mentally unwell and it seems to be getting progressively worse
Not all the time, but yeah, he’s done it a few times. Same thing with cutting.
Personally, I file it under “just go with the flow”. Things happen sometimes at VK shows, and sometimes you just take it as it comes. Like Anti-Feminism and starting fires, or a lot of bands with random Nazi salutes during their furi. You don’t have to like it, of course. But vote with your yen.
It’s why I try and give heads ups every time I see a show like that, so that people can judge for themselves.
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He is showing of to other bandomen how to cover more ground in the sexual harassment game.
Ok, on a more serious note
Everything I ever heard or read about this guy seems to be that he is one walking mental health issue. Still seeing him pull blank shocked me and it also feels concerning for him, but also his Bangyas that think it’s funny.
But then also, I am not sure if I would have reacted different seeing those clips without kyouka and Yoshiatsu stories in the back of my mind. I remember that just one or two days ago I saw a clip of Tsuzuku fake choking a fan in the audience. Now I assume he didn’t really push or so, just put his hands around the fans neck. But it didn’t feel right to me to see in that moment. And I also realized that the whole recent stuff just made me personally more sensitive.
But also like @GreatNorthernVK mentions, we had bandmen “mastrubate” in their pants on stage (how much of that was fake and real, I don’t know), we had bands like Anti feminism bringing up pig heads and crushing those long almost onto themselves.
We have bandomen cutting themselves on stage
And the list goes on…
Maybe some of us, like me, have grown old, or too old to really be into the Schock factor… I don’t know…
But also I feel kinda sorry for the guy, he is clearly not well and instead of getting help his fans basically encourage him…
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Honestly as long as the live performance is explicitly stated to only be for adults this stuff would be completely fine in my eyes.
Of course as long as he is only showing or masturbating and not putting it in contact with the audience
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Yes, he does this somewhat often. It’s on the more extreme end of things, but self harming and, if not full frontal nudity, borderline similar things (masturbating, being, say, very prominent with one’s (I can’t believe I’m writing this but I can’t think of another phrasing) bulge) are not uncommon with other bands.
Edit: will self quote from the choking thread because I think it’s relevant
[quote=“starfish, post:43, topic:15681”]
This one time, at 逆ダイ, a guitarist who shall remain unnamed to make sure he doesn’t get hate, at the second live I’d seen the band in question at, held me to his crotch (feat. very skinny trousers) for a good amount of time and rewarded me afterwards with a fucking headpat and a pick (safely stored in a cheki folder as a good memory 
)
[/quote]
(and if my smiley at the end didn’t make it clear, I had been enthusiastically participating). This is part of the lives, not a necessery one but one that many enjoy. I’m sure it must seem intense and extreme if you’re used to western shows where at most you go to a mosh pit (which, funnily enough, are very tame at v系 lives), but the gya embrace the extreme stage antics and fan interactions. A much more physically dangerous one was at the same band’s live many years later, when I saw a foreign gya get hurt because she got trampled when she was sitting and people around her started jumping as part of the furi. It’s why it’s important to know what you’re getting into.
On hiro’s situation specifically, my take of indeterminate temperature here is that there are メンヘラ artists who use the genre to channel their actual MH problems, and don’t just sing about those topics just to be trendy.
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It’s reasonable to be more sensitive at the moment, but it’s a show, and at least in Japan the people who end up front enough for this to happen to them are aware and enthusiastically consenting to what’s happening. I promise you, if Japan didn’t have as strict camera rules, you would’ve seen so many more clips like that, and other similar fan interactions at live. That “choking” thing in particular is NOT uncommon at all. But really, it’s important to understand that it’s a show, and people know what to expect, the scene is so small. V系 lives are almost a form of participatory theater for the gya up front, furi is also an important aspect of this.
Evidently a lot of overseas fans don’t know what to expect any more, and maybe they should raise the age limits (I would be very happy with this) and give out warnings, but that’s a different matter.
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Oh that clip I saw was just recently, it was oversea’s. So with a foreign fan, also the fan was clearly enthusiastic online about it, so yeah.
Yeah, I know the clip you mean, that’s what I meant by the raising age limits and warning people addition, for overseas shows specifically it might be necessary. Sorry if I wasn’t clear.
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If the audience is consenting adults eh idk what’s the problem, no different then going to a club w/ male dancers
Granted i haven’t seen the video and don’t plan to lol, maybe there’s something really crazy in it idk, but i feel like clear the bars of consenting and adults and you can do whatever you like
Ofc who knows if they’re actually doing enough to make sure the audience is informed adults, and if he’s doing the thing of asking for interaction w/ minors then yeah forget all i said and definitely a problem
wrt tzk fake choking a fan, i can’t have a problem w/ that at all if it’s something the fan went up for expecting. Maybe if you don’t like looking at it that’s totally valid and you’re not wrong for it but that might be bc of personal sensitivities or being outside that interest rather than it necessarily being a wrong thing to do? Like i can’t stand looking at any bandman who looks or acts like a clown lol it’s a bit upsetting to me but i can call that someone else’s interest i don’t want to participate in and enjoy the rest about that band while saying i’m not trying to see that
That’s where I’m coming from with this.
You can market your music to adults as much as you like but you have no way of confirming everyone in the crowd is a consenting adult. There could be younger adults as much as grown adults that don’t want to see his penis. I don’t go to music concerts with the expectation that someone’s gonna get undressed on stage. I don’t want those wires crossed. If they are warning people ahead of time that he’s gonna do this, then that’s one thing. But I don’t exactly get the impression that this was planned…
As someone who is not attracted to these men at all, seeing this captured feels kinda gross ngl. Not in a sexually repressed sort of way, but in a “is this man okay and why are we encouraging it?” sort of way.
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[quote=“zeus, post:11, topic:16724”]
. If they are warning people ahead of time that he’s gonna do this, then that’s one thin
[/quote]
They don’t warn you any more that they warn you in the west that a black metal band might have upsetting lyrical themes to religious people. People who go to their live know the band and know their infamy. The ones who don’t want to see it leave.
Ugh, clearly it’s too late when I can’t get the quotes to work.
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Yeah i think i agree with all this! I just tend to write more like “assuming everything offscreen was handled optimally i can’t call it a problem only from what i see” only bc what seems relevant to me isn’t judging individual acts and content but how they’ve set it up, if that makes sense?
Like it’s not like showing X is inherently bad so just show just Y and you’re certainly fine and good.
edit: but my personal assumption if we’re being real isn’t that everything’s being handled well and he’s doing nothing objectionable offscreen; it’s just that’d be an unfounded accusation for me to say it. And i feel like it’s kinda safer to believe no one you follow is above doing harms than it is to believe one or anyone can pick the bad ones out from the good ones
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This reminds me of the story of Sophia Urista. She is (was?) the lead singer of a band called Brass Against, and in 2021 she hit notoriety for a stunt that left everyone in the crowd speechless. During a song, she said pulled a fan on the stage and consensually pissed on his face. She was fine with it. He was fine with it. The crowd was not fine with it. It went viral. It wasn’t really planned. Fans didn’t necessarily know what to expect. The band had to make a statement basically saying “this is not who we are”.
I feel like this is a few shades away from this situation but still really relevant. Just because you signed up to see X doesn’t mean you are okay with seeing Y, and we can only make that judgement on a case by case basis. I can’t even make blanket statements like “all senketsu fans are ok with seeing his penis” because you very well might not be.
Saying things like “you should expect it because its senketsu” is circular logic to me. How do you know unless you know? I didn’t know! Now I know! I wish I didn’t know but I do. You don’t necessarily know what this band is up to unless you have a pulse on the scene, and you have no way of knowing what stunt he is going to pull on any given night. I certainly was not aware of all of Hiro’s antics up until today, and I’m someone that’s in the know!
Basically, what I’m saying is “how far is too far”?
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One thing i think we’d agree on is if anyone in any band project etc tangentially related to us said “i think for my next show i might ______” the response would be “absolutely please don’t”. So hopefully i’m not heard as saying “this is a great idea, love that he’s done it”…
I think its what you should expect when attending his live show, I think the same goes for a lot of the stunts that mamireta and anti-feminism pull. If someone is upset by it I think they should have done a better job educating themselves on the kind of band theyre seeing.
I feel like it all boils down to
How far can that visual shock go? Where does it begin, and at what point does it cross the line? Where are the boundaries between artistic provocation, discomfort, and actual harm?
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I have to tell the story of VAJRA real quick because I think it’s relevant.
For those not in the know, VAJRA was a loud-kei band from the late 00’s. Essentially a Dir en grey copy band. VAJRA had a guitarist named L who was known for being rough with fans during lives. One could say that you should do your research before going to a VAJRA live because they did lots of provocative things. But one day, L took it too far. From what I remember, he pulled a fan by her hair across the stage and gave her a black eye. She was not happy. She complained loudly, L got fired from the band, VAJRA ended up disbanding not too long after.
This is really more in reference to the “Tsuzuku choking” comments from earlier in the thread, but could also loosely apply to Hiro. You can do all the research you want, but if the artist wants to push the envelope then there’s no knowing what to expect. And just because you’re in the know doesn’t mean you consent. Certainly, that girl was a big fan of VAJRA to be up at the front in order to get picked, but that doesn’t mean she wanted her hair pulled and to be punched in the face.
Fun fact: L is still in the scene, in a new band as the vocalist. And I don’t think they play that shit in his new band. Seems like he learned his lesson.
Choking is very serious and it’s easy to get it wrong and cause damage. Tsuzuku shouldn’t be fucking around with that shit. It is very serious.
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Can’t disagree with any of this, and feel bad for that woman mentioned. Maybe it’s impossible to fully resolve this in a vkei shows context without running the conversation all the way to “what’s continuous informed sober adult consent and how’s breaks, intentional or otherwise, of this handled?” Which i’m certainly not opposed to but seems like a thing college students in the field study; in other words above my pay grade lol
For the tzk example in my head i’m imagining placing hands around without exerting any pressure, which is a completely baseless assumption and if it turns out that’s inaccurate then yeah sure i’ll feel the other way - i don’t intend to start off excusing him first and figuring facts second lol just at some level we all got assumptions
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As a side note, it’s actually pretty common for gya to request “choke” poses during 2shots. Presumably the men are not actually choking them, but it’s an interesting trope…