looking back, I really miss the short era when Chaos was singing for two legit bands at once. it was unusual, and it brought some life into the scene that was largely going through one long bleak phase at that time.
out of all-white weeb-kei, I can only think of AURAL COMA standing out of many other nonsense short-lived bands, they had something very coherent about the entire thing:
none of those ppl will ever get taken seriously even if they headline an entire gacktfest in Japan, but that’s like another sad aspect, along with general decline of metal and rock scenes.
Overseas maybe they won’t get respect maybe, or even sour foreign fans in Japan also, but within the actual scene us foreign peeps get lots of respect 'twas earned though.
I would like to add to that that part of Visual Kei is also about very different cultural (and musical) influences, from that alone I fail to view it as something exclusively japanese.
To label it this way or not may be another question. I feel like aiming for (for instance) Gothic and VK at the same time does not feel like something unthinkable.
Yep, like how I said someone like Nero would be viewed as like “めっちゃV系じゃん!” With some of his looks by locals on the flipside Schwarz Stein would fit right in at like some goth industrial event overseas and people who do not know vkei would just see them as that too.
Labels can hold you down or lift you up,
It is just about personal balance and taking a step back to see the customers viewpoints too.
You faboo, keep at it
I don’t really listen to any non-Japanese VK bands but honestly don’t care about it. Therr are a billion VK bands who look the same in Japan so why can’t a band from another country have that look too? Ultimately it all comes down to image as VK bands don’t all sound the same with some very distinctive sounding bands so who are we to say why a band can or can’t look that way? The only thing I will say about it is that I dont feel a foreign VK band could market themselves the same way, such as the live limited released, cheki and all that. That does seem like a very culturally specific thing, not saying foreign bands couldnt do that but just feel it simply wouldnt work.
I understand your reference to foreign Visual Kei bands and their place in the Visual Kei music scene. Foreign bands are influenced by Visual Kei and try to adopt this unique style in their music and appearance, which shows the globalization trend of music and culture to some extent. Polarization between these bands is common, as some may successfully incorporate elements of Visual Kei, while others may not quite capture the essence of this particular style.
On the positive side, these foreign Visual Kei bands may have a certain following among Visual Kei fans worldwide, as they offer a new perspective and musical choice. As you mentioned, some people might have more access to these bands because they sing in English so more people can understand their lyrics. At the same time, this also presents an opportunity for foreign Visual Kei bands to somehow fill a void in some of the Visual Kei market, especially those who wish to hear a language they are familiar with.
On the other hand, for some Visual Kei fans, foreign bands may be somewhat offended, as they may be seen as imitating or plagiarizing Japanese original Visual Kei music culture. This emotion can be strong, as Visual Kei has a deep historical and cultural background in Japan.
All in all, foreign Visual Kei bands have a place in the global music scene and offer variety to different music lovers. Their presence reflects the diversity and globalization of music, while also sparking interesting discussions about culture, identity and creativity. No matter what, the most important thing is that music should be a way of expression and sharing, and be able to connect people from different cultural backgrounds.
Hey nice to see you here Yurameki! I think you hit the nail on the head but I will say a few things. I hope I’m not misunderstanding anything.
It kind of confuses me when people get upset when foreign bands copy the style. It’s music, and music is art, and art is in many senses influenced by imitation one way or the other. The idea of ‘copying’ in this case sort of reminds me of the concept of cultural appropriation which has some merit in many cases but sometimes people take it a bit far.
Isn’t VK music also heavily influenced by western music? VK really didn’t just create itself purely out of thin air but rather it’s a willing participant in the evolving branch of rock music itself.
Sometimes it’s extremely obvious, especially when artists directly copy popular guitar riffs and vocal techniques. I’ve heard VK bands like glammy and cannabis which sound like carbon copies of nu metal bands, and Damy has a song that sounds almost identical to “Daddy” by Korn. It’s just hard for me to understand the mindset of some people.
It’s also really interesting to me how the idea of ‘copying’ can be seen as an extremely negative thing but also in some contexts a positive thing. Like people see it as ‘stealing’ without permission, similar to tracing a piece of art. But some people could also see it as respect and inspiration. The only thing I can see the artist doing is explaining that they are just heavily inspired by the art they’ve imitated (basically giving credit where it’s due), and that they are very grateful and have no negative intentions.
I also know personally how happy I would feel in general if people were inspired by my own art, which has actually happened in a different domain, but of course if they listed me as an inspiration it would make me feel even happier.
Im positive about it. It’s a great way to make VK Accessible oversea since it’s easier to get into it as mentioned by Yurameki.
Korea has two really nice ones:
Deva & Angel Heart. They sadly didn’t released much.
Also Hybrids from France is really good Imo but disbanded as well.
I dont think a lot of the practices from Japanese VK will work elsewhere in the world, like one man shows or live limited release but ultimately it doesnt matter i dont think. I asked Issei (NAZARE) about this on a Q and A and all he said was “If you say your band is VK then it’s VK” which i actually completely agree with and dont see why it should be otherwise tbh.
For me a big part of what makes foreign VK bands actually sound VK is the VK accented vocals. I made a thread about this but unfortunately not many weighed their opinion on it. I can do these vocals myself to some extent, as I sing VK songs for fun quite often. Too shy to join a band.
But these styles/techniques are easier to do in Japanese, but because foreign VK bands tend to sing in languages like English they shy away from “sounding” VK and to me they come across like typical western rock bands with slight VK influence mainly in some of the riffs used but hardly in vocal style.
The points you make are very in-depth and cover the complexities of imitating and being inspired by art, music, and cultures. In fact, this issue is very worthy of discussion because it is related to the exchange of creativity and culture.
Cultural Appropriation and Imitation: You mentioned the concept of cultural appropriation, which is a controversial issue. When an artist or musician is inspired by another culture, this can raise issues of cultural appropriation. However, as you point out, art and music are always influenced by previous works and styles, and this influence is part of the creative process. The key is how this impact is handled: whether in a respectful and innovative way, or simply copying and imitating.
Western influences on VK music: You correctly point out that VK music itself is also influenced by Western music, especially rock music. VK music is a fusion of different styles and adds visual elements to it. This kind of communication and influence is part of the development of music and also reflects cross-cultural communication.
Copying and creativity: The situation you mentioned is similar to sampling in music, in which the artist may intentionally borrow elements from other music to create a new work. This can be considered a form of creative expression, provided it is done within a legal and ethical framework and respects the original creator.
Inspired Optimism: For artists, seeing their work inspire creativity in others is a joyful and fulfilling experience. This mutual influence and stimulation can promote the continuous development of art and music.
Overall, this discussion highlights the diversity of culture and art, as well as the complexities of imitating and being inspired by. It is important to find a balance between creation and imitation, and to respect originality while also encouraging new creative development. This dialogue helps us better understand how art and music form, communicate and develop across cultures.
Language at face can be a big identifier. But just how you had the proto era 80s guys copying Motley Crue, White Snake, WASP etc. in Japanese in turn you can apply those same techniques to English really easily.
like typical vkei vocal thing, almost meme level, is the imitation of how Kiyoharu sings right?
You can role your R’s in English like him no problem, nothing stopping you! except thinking you cannot do it.
The melody myth I have touched on here on this forum also “Japanese is a language that is better for melodies etc. you cannot sing those melodies in English.”
All the melodies I make for either XAVAK, my solo stuff, for idols or jpop singers, I never think of the language. I just make the melody and I can write whatever language to it. Just like how a disney song can be sung in any language and done well, the quality at the end depends on the singer.
You are def right that lots of those overseas Vkei bands do not apply the techniques and I think it is because some have fallen for that weeb “Japan is sooo different” grass is greener on the other side mentality or they just write lyrics first without emphasis on the melody as the back bone.
like yurameki said, it is def about that fine line between imitation and innovation.
I’ve tried to get some overseas peeps to stop singing in bad japanese (imitation)
and sing in their own language (innovation) but still keeping the vkei influence strong.
I redid quite a few of the 【En’Cell♰Dis’Dein】 era songs in English for 2nd solo album just to show that you can do these type of songs that old bangya in Japan ate up and were excited about but in English without any issues and that solo album sold more than the 【En’Cell♰Dis’Dein】album tbh.
You’re absolutely right; finding that fine line between imitation and innovation is crucial in music, especially when it comes to genres like Visual Kei with distinct characteristics.
Your efforts to encourage overseas musicians to sing in their own language while maintaining the Visual Kei influence are commendable. It’s a great way to bring innovation to the genre and make it more accessible to a broader audience. Redoing songs from the 【En’Cell♰Dis’Dein】 era in English for your second solo album not only showcases the versatility of the genre but also demonstrates that the appeal of Visual Kei can transcend language barriers.
In the end, music should be about creative expression and innovation, and it’s artists like you who help keep genres like Visual Kei evolving and thriving in a global context. Your approach is a testament to the power of music to transcend cultural and linguistic boundaries while still staying true to its roots.
This is a nice reply. I will clarify something I said though, as I realized even initially my wording came off a bit misleading, when I think English VK is very possible. You can sound VK or go crazy with vocal styles in English, but like you said it seems people don’t really try for some reason or another. I’ve considered trying to sing VK songs in English myself recently, because like you said it’s very possible. You can sing a written melody in any language, but because of somthing you also mentioned I don’t really seriously consider it.
As a singer myself I quickly notice that Japanese, as least subjectively in practice, is a language that feels naturally easier to sing in than most other languages and I think this is mainly because it’s a vowel-heavy language which makes a huge difference, especially when there are vowels at the end of the word. This makes Japanese a great language for applying different techniques and accents to your sound. When I sing in Japanese I really enjoy messing around with different falsetto and vibratos, rolled rs etc. I especially like this in oshare bands from mid-2000s which were often very heavy on the accented notes.
You can take your voice to many different places in the Japanese language, to new heights seemingly. I’ve experimented with many different styles of vocals while singing many different types of Japanese bands. But I definitely agree you can do this in English, it just doesn’t seem that most like to experiment that much as it gets seen as ‘weird’ or ‘unskilled’ to do so. People often mistake discordant or unpredictable vocals as being “bad” automatically.
yah again that “vowel” thing A I U E O etc with Japanese, literally makes no difference for singing to be honest if you are a veteran who knows how to use your mouth and body correctly while singing, it is just a feel thing weebs get I think, and believing that myth will only limit one’s self.
The heights you can take yourself rather are from studying various different countries’ music and melody tropes and then adding them to your palette. These talks always help me make little pushes against such myths in music so I am glad to have them, it made me approach the melody of DEATH GAME in a way to go against such ideals, English words at the start next part of the verse->same melody but Japanese, and then the chorus? I straight up sang it in a Rammstein kind of way knowing it does not matter what language mukuro writes over it.
More than anything singing in a language you have control over will result in better outcomes.
Ex; a younger band I was giving some advice too was saying this same stuff and they were thinking they were singing correctly but were singing in 片言 really badly to the point our Japanese staff at the time was laughing about it for a week. So I do not know how one can say Japanese is better for singing when often 9 times out of 10 these folks have really bad 片言 accents and are inflecting on the wrong parts of the words etc.
Speaking Japanese everyday for a decade as a foreigner too I can tell you English uses way more parts of the mouth so you can take those aspects from Vkei and ramp it up to as you said “new heights” because you have more control over your body versus a Japanese speaker.
want to make a non vowel ending sound more smooth? just legit do take after take until you get it how you want, change how you move your mouth etc., the voice is a limitless instrument regardless of language. English also has more flexible ways to change sentence structure, so really there is no excuse for original lyrics.
Snake oil ideals in music abound, thats why musicians pay for producers to shut up their BS ideals and guide them to the light or pay techs to build their rigs and sound, lots of myths out there that only hinder. I think that’s one of the big problems with the overseas bands is they not only lack the knowledge/experience but also lack the ability to pay someone to guide them like their favorite bands had in the labels and producer seats, plus overseas we are in an echo chamber where we propagate these livejournal era weeb ideals. There are tons of other vowel heavy languages that do not have amazing bands, Experience and the brain are the path to limitlessness~ We build walls and false ideals ourselves that trick us into holes.
fwiw i do vocals in english for a band - i didn’t find my recordings worth publishing until i started doing more of what i at first called a ‘character voice’
bc i thought it’s easy enough to listen to idk, Boris or the Novembers & think what makes vkei sound vkei can’t just be the Japanese language, or else they wouldn’t sound so different
i think there’s not many english inspired-by-vkei bands that use a vkei sort of voice? granted there’s so many different ways to do it; 9goats doesn’t have the same vocals as Lareine doesn’t have the same as Buck-Tick, Ashmaze, Diru, etc etc… but they’re all doing ~something~ beyond just singing on pitch with a natural clear voice.
i got used to doing vibrato from a decade of singing karaoke while driving lol but recently i made an effort to push my voice more out of my mask & open up my chest (i think i’m describing this poorly lol but u get the idea) and i’m also trying to learn how overdubbed parts are written. like, i can tell in the god and death stars, Aie does a real obvious mirroring of the main line an octave down, and i love that sound, so i try to work in a less noticeable bass part when i record. i’d love to have a better sense for how to target vocal doubling & harmonizing.
all this to say - i do these things and i’m not gonna say my music became more like vkei; that’s not something i’d ever feel comfortable saying lol
but i liked it better! and i’m writing w/ more thought and purpose, so that seems de facto valuable.
as a counterpoint tho… the vocalist for Posadas sings mostly in English, but here did a song (La Entrega) in Spanish. To me it sounds muuccchh closer to vkei sounding vocals, despite him never listening to or caring for the scene. But to @Ghostpepper 's point, i wonder if it’s not a necessary aspect of Spanish that it sounds more like this, but rather Dan having one idea of what English singing is like, and Spanish singing is like, and performing more in each way bc that’s what he’s familiar with.
just thinking out loud, forgive the rant lol but i’m wondering about this on my own almost every day ^^"
Hey, really good response. I see your points about how there are advantages to singing in your native language clearly. I think that the reason I feel this way myself as a singer is because most of the songs I sing in my native language are from bands with vocalists who sing in styles I have less experience singing in.
Such as in rock, where it is common to sing with a loud grundgy voices and lots of belting. I definitely agree with what you’re saying. Sometimes things can feel a certain way but not actually be that way when you learn new things. I’m curious how often you’ve heard these myths? Because it definitely sounds like you’ve heard this way of thinking I expressed often.
Am pretty sure I am the longest still active foreigner still doing vkei inspired stuff(well f*** now I am part of the vkei scene so I am separate from that now but still), 18 years now, so I have heard every little thing possible against foreign vkei and also I lived out every mistake myself too.
the first 8 years were in America and the first half I was totally on that same level of “Japanese is better for melody, I have to try and do this in that language.” etc. just like everyone was saying since the livejournal days and such, but then DADA from Velvet Eden gave me some great advice on MIXI when I was talking with him, after asking why I wanted to sing in Japanese very nicely he said “Think of your audience.” and he did not push it but left me to ponder that. That was the starting point that led me to eventually be able to move here to be honest.
Miyabi from Gellonimo once pointed out how lots of Japanese people prefer European music and metal because it has more emphasis on melody compared to America which is more rhythm based, I imagine Spanish being a romance language also has that emphasis on melody that would draw ones mind to something in that area easier?
In my opinion, the biggest problem with vkei in general is that other people have a problem understanding the Japanese language/ lyrics of a song unfortunately. Most people I have introduced visual kei to, the first question I get asked is “Do you know the language?” or “I can’t tell what they are saying” instead of taking the time to actually fully listen or try out an album or two.
For global vkei, I feel the biggest problem is recognition and budgeting. To my current knowledge there hasn’t been a single international vkei artist that went major. Although there are select few artists that were apart of vkei labels in the past but I don’t think any major ones. Maybe if international vkei bands toured in Japan with other vkei artists they might get the recognition they need. I know some European non-vkei bands do shows in other countries as apart of their tour and spread themselves out a bit. Most vkei bands don’t do international events or it’s rare/ uncommon for them to travel overseas.
Another factor I think there aren’t that many international vkei bands/ lack of them. This probably has to do with the second point I mentioned with vkei not being known in other areas.
Overall the good thing I like about international vkei is I think I feel that they have potential to incorporate new ideas to their music due to them being in a different country. Some themes or influences from other countries I feel could bring a more unique factor to vkei music as a whole.
'twas earned though.
