What Japanese bands can you see get recognition in other music scenes or regions?

Axius · June 24, 2024, 12:42pm

Hello just to briefly explain this topic. Japanese music are in music scenes or communities in which they normal are apart of. The overall question is what bands can you see getting more popularity, recognition, money etc… in other types of music scenes or areas of the world. It can be any music scene, community etc… that is different then the one they normally play in. You can also name a band or particular bands. I posted my example below:

I honestly believe that some bands like: Deviloof, NBL, dexcore etc… can get some recognition in the metalcore/metal scene. Yea maybe the outfits might be bit different or unusual at first but some select few bands in the metalcore scene dress up in outfits or costumes already and generally accepted. Overall one or more of these things, people get attracted to bands by weather it be for their: art, music, lyrics or style. The music that these bands produce aren’t very far off from metalcore bands. What other people think?

zeus · June 24, 2024, 1:11pm

None of them, because if they could, then they would have already. Here are a few disconnected thoughts which influence my opinion:

I can go to target and see ‘NOW THAT’S WHAT I CALL K-POP’.

I search for ‘NOW THAT’S WHAT I CALL JPOP’ and get this:

J-Pop, the lowest common denominator when it comes to music from Japan that people might enjoy, totally gets eclipsed by K-Pop. And if China ever opens up their cultural borders, the sheer amount of C-Pop that would come out the floodgates would push J-Pop to a distant third. If pop music isn’t even making inroads anymore, most niche acts won’t either. Rock just ain’t popular, metal even less so, so a lot of the bands that we enjoy here get no traction elsewhere. We go in expecting this…

MIYAVI, one of the bigger figures in post-00’s visual kei, one of the four LAST ROCKSTARS, is more well-known for his movie output in Hollywood than any of his music. He’s trying to pivot himself from a musician to an entertainer.
Gackt, another big figure in post-00’s visual kei, has a long list of acting and voice over credits.
HYDE is no slouch either
A lot of famous people know who YOSHIKI is because YOSHIKI has cultivated his brand into a cult of personality. A lot of people who pose for pictures with him might do the ‘X pose’ and vaguely connect it to one of his old bands. But X JAPAN is not a household rock name in America, and it likely never will be.
Dir en grey? The GazettE? I love them both, and they’re number 1 and 2 when it comes to current visual bands at the top. Both of them haven’t been stateside since 2019. With these new visa laws in place, they likely never will again. Not playing concerts in arguably one of the biggest markets of the world does nothing to promote popularity for your band or the scene.
Final point: they all sing in Japanese. It’s a rare person that I come across for which lyrics do not matter. I think that’s something we all share in common here, which is very uncommon when talking to the average person about music. They may not understand the lyrics to a song when it first drops, but the safety net of knowing that it’s in a language they understand cannot be understated. The vocals could be cookie monster gutturals, but tell people it’s in Japanese and they just…lose interest. For true crossover appeal, you need a Japanese artist that can sing in English well enough for most people to not notice. And it has to be all the time, not just one or two songs.

For me, the perfect storm of aesthetics, sound, and ability to sing well in English is Shiina Ringo…and she completely ignores the American market. One of the bigger names in J-Pop over the last two decades, the Japanese equivalent of Kate Bush, and even she did the math and realized marketing herself in America would mean compromising her sound, so she hasn’t marketed herself here at all.

As long as the American market is averse to hearing anything that isn’t in a familiar language (English, Spanish, maybe a splash of Korean w/ some English phrases sprinkled in), no band will make it. None. And we’re not even getting into the fact that the other side has to want to market themselves internationally, and most don’t.

Here’s some songs where Ringo sings in English:

Axius · June 24, 2024, 2:12pm

Not to speak for bands at all, it’s possible some bands can’t because of money reasons in some cases.

I feel as tho as of recent years people are more open to the idea of listening to music that are not in their own language or branching out in their own music tastes. We all came from listening to music at some point that is in our own language and found Japanese music.

Overall, it could be possible that other people in different countries might like music in different languages? Not to speak for overall popularity on this in particular bands but in general for any band to make a name for themselves, it’s about putting themselves out there in a overall aspect to potentially gain new fans or reach fans that might be interested in their music.

All the points you bring up are valid and I do agree with you. Some people aren’t open to listening to bands that aren’t in their own language but then again there could be a place in the world where those type people exist that a Japanese band could reach them and make a new fan?

I made this topic is generally as a what-if sencerio case and is opinion based. I figure it’s just a topic to share since I’ve seen talk about similar things in other threads etc…
I do respect your opinion on this topic

zeus · June 24, 2024, 2:23pm

If we’re talking strictly the American markets (North, Central, South), and assuming that all languages have equal exposure to the market, Japanese will not come in first. Spanish will absolutely dominate, coming in second place rather easily as there are several genres of mainstream music in which this language finds a home. I’ll even count UK/Aussie artists as a separate group here, which will find more success due to shared language. Chinese and Indian dialects cannot be discounted due to the sheer population of those two countries, and the aforementioned Korean language will find a spot in here somewhere too! Japanese is coming in seventh, earliest, and the only reason why is because it persists in American markets by proxy of anime, gaming, and manga. If it wasn’t for that cultural win, I don’t even know if Japan would be in the conversation.

Here’s a poll I left for future members to weigh in on. Vote yes if you found visual kei through anime or manga. Vote no if you found it in any other way. I predict more people will say yes than no.

No
Yes

0 voters

Maybe I’m being too pessimistic, but I’ve been following Japanese music since 1999, and despite various chances and technological improvements, it’s far more inaccessible than it has any right to be. By design. And I feel that this design has to be called out for what it is.

Axius · June 24, 2024, 2:39pm

Your not wrong about this. Overall anime and manga is popular worldwide so there’s some Japanese music exposure there which is nice.

In terms of music popularity it’s different there are vast amounts of music in the world. I personally wouldn’t know what’s more popular vs what, numbers wise.

Before you name dropped countries, I thought of which countries in my opinion Japanese music would get recognition in. I feel like: South America, Germany, Korea, and Taiwan are on this list.

Rena · June 24, 2024, 3:34pm

Excuse I will take a moment to collect Babymetal collabing with everyone and anyone nowadays

You would be surprised how popular FACT actually were in thar scene when they were still active
Also you really bring the metalcore scene up and leave out Crystal Lake, Knosis and Paledusk?

I shall point at the common verdicts again

Rena · June 24, 2024, 3:40pm

Also let me point out this thread

Axius · June 24, 2024, 4:13pm

I apologize . I’m not well versed in Japanese metalcore. Those bands are welcome too!

zeus · June 24, 2024, 5:48pm

That’s why.

There are already Japanese metalcore bands that have the right sound and sing in English a majority of the time and the demand for them is not there. They weren’t even a part of the conversation until @Rena put them in. If they don’t pass muster here, they most certainly won’t make it in the American music scene. This community is the litmus test.

I’ll leave this here. Debuted two weeks ago. Only 44k views at this moment.

There’s also a reason why I brought up MYV in an earlier post of mine. Want to know what visual kei would sound like if it went mainstream? Look no further than his latest album.

This has changed so much from what he was chasing when he was sticking primarily to Japanese audiences that it may as well be two different artists. And I don’t want to phrase it in terms of “better” or “worse”, but in terms of song structure, genre chosen, focus on English lyrics, the producers he works with, and much more. All of these things combined is what happens when a visual kei artist focuses on a primarily American audience, and I invite you to reflect on whether you like this sound and what the implications of that would be if visual kei were to adopt it more broadly.

Also, he’s dominating in terms of views when compared to Crossfaith…

This is what happens when a Japanese act makes a conscious effort to break into the American market, and if this is far removed from a lot of the aspects of visual kei that you find enjoyable, then you agree with me that maybe it’s best if visual kei continues to focus on itself and do it’s own thing. Visual kei is a very malleable scene, but as it influences, it is also influenced. There are fans that prefer the kotekote sound to the koteosa sound, some that prefer koteosa to the deathcore sound, and some fans now that look at idol metal encroaching on visual kei with much trepidation. Personally, I would like to see less of the influence which drives current-era MIYAVI hit the rest of the scene more broadly. Let the scene continue to tick along and let it’s members be influenced by whatever they want, without pressure to fit into this mold or that mold. I don’t think it’s the secret, but it’s the main ingredient for sure!

I know that last paragraph sounds at odds with sentiments I’ve shared elsewhere, where I wish visual kei would open up a bit more, but truthfully I just want bands to put more things on their webshop and be willing to ship abroad.

EDIT: I also feel like my post is a bit incomplete without circling back to the MYV bit of the conversation and leaving examples of what he used to sound like.

Something old, from his second studio album

Gotta bring this one up, because he used to dominate the acoustic guitar. I bet he still can, but I don’t see him bring it up much

One of his later songs, before he 100% drank the kool-aid. It’s like you can catch him mid-transformation here

Last one, when he embraced his Japanese heritage 100% and mixed it in with hip-hop, which created something that’s unmatched 10 years later. Current MYV would never.

CervaCannibale · June 24, 2024, 8:21pm

Everybody is acting like recognition means the band needs to be in the top 10 of it’s genre. I think you don’t need to be a band know by everybody and their mom to be recognized.
Dir en grey for example are recognised in the metal scene. They have played two of the most important festivals in Europe: Rock am Ring and Wacken. And even the metal guy from my work knows them and he didn’t get a ticket for one of their concerts here because they were sold out.

I think a lot of the bands mentioned here already get recognition in their genre but It’s talked down

There is also a lot of mainstream = USA talk. Japan itself is one of the biggest music markets of the world so getting big in Japan is theoretically also mainstream. Gazette did Tokyo Dome!

Is it? I don’t think this community has much to do with the mainstream taste so it’s quite the opposite. An act we don’t think much of could be the next viral tiktok hit.

In conlusion: let’s think a bit more positiv

zeus · June 24, 2024, 8:55pm

That’s exactly what I mean.

There is no online hub for non visual Japanese music whose community even comes close to the size of ours. There’s an entire world of music in Japan that doesn’t fly here. Let’s go down a quick list:

Atarashii Gakko no Leaders
Emma Aibara
HOME
鋭児
East of Eden
King Gnu
Aimyon
Ohzora Kimishima
SHISHAMO
CVLTE
YOASOBI
HIGE DAN
Fujii Kaze
BABYMETAL
tricot
RADWIMPS
ONE OK ROCK
Creepy Nuts
sixTONES
XG
tuki
Hitsugibungaku
PERFUME
Hikaru Utada
DAOKO
SEVENTEEN
ADO
Yuuri
Yama
CHARAN-PO-RANTAN
Ai Carina Uemura
Vaundy
Kenshi Yonezu
TORO
Knosis
Paledusk

None of these artists are really popular here - you’d be hard pressed to find a news topic dedicated to any of them - and yet most of these are what’s dominating Japan’s Top 100 for this year. This is what the Japanese are listening to. Creepy Nuts’ song “Bling-Bang-Bang-Born” is number one on the Hot 100 Mid-Year Chart. The MASHLE season 2 opener was released digitally on Jan. 7, and has been streamed 348,998,877 times up to the end of the counting period. “BBBB” also holds the No. 1 spot on Billboard Japan’s Global Japan Songs Excl. Japan list for the first half of the year. Fifteen-year-old singer-songwriter tuki.’s “Bansanka” follows at No. 2.

Ado’s song “Show” is on the Hot 100 Mid-Year Chart as well. XG aggressively tours Europe and America. BABYMETAL does collabs with everyone. YOASOBI has two songs in the Top 100: “Idol” and “The Brave”. “Idol” was the Number One song of 2023, and is still holding third place in the charts currently. Mrs. GREEN APPLE’s “Que Sera Sera” is on the Hot 100 Mid-Year Chart right now too.

sixTONE’s album “The Vibes” takes the top spot on Japan’s Hot Albums, selling a total of 571,187 copies during the tallying period after being released Jan. 10, hitting No. 1 easily. At No. 2 on the mid-year albums chart is SEVENTEEN’s best-of collection 17 IS RIGHT HERE, and Hikaru Utada’s all-time greatest hits album SCIENCE FICTION, celebrating the 25th anniversary of the J-pop superstar’s debut, is at No. 3. Mrs. GREEN APPLE is the top artist on the mid-year Japan Artist 100 chart, when combining the results of the Japan Hot 100 and Hot Albums charts. The three-man band has been a constant on the Japan Hot 100, with 14 tracks including “Que Sera Sera” and “Dance Hall” charting on the list.

If not here, then where are English-speaking people talking about any of these artists at a critical enough mass to make a difference? vk.gy? It’s in the name. Melokei? It’s also in the name. Visual kei section of TikTok and Twitter? It’s in the name! There isn’t any place that I’m aware of, and I join any vaguely related circles for Japanese music. If there were to be any crossover appeal between what the Japanese find popular and what would work in America, I would have to rank any of the artists I included above before any of the actual artists I enjoy.

Sadly, the music and artists we listen to, discuss, and report on are disconnected entirely from the charts. And there’s a galaxy of artists between Japan’s Top 100 and visual kei. So I have to cut in and say the usual suspects of NOCTURNAL BLOODLUST, DEXCORE, DEVILOOF, NAZARE - all bands I enjoy greatly and want to succeed - are just not going to have crossover appeal. If they were, they’d have it already.

It’s not about being negative. It’s about being real. Visual kei exists in it’s current form for us international fans because we push it, cultivate it, and promote it. No such energy exists in online international waters for anything outside this walled garden. If we aren’t consuming, pushing, and cultivating the majority of what the average Japanese person listens to and enjoys - which face it, is pop, rock, and dance music - then how are any of those artists going to reach anyone else less receptive?

I genuinely do not know.

Edit: And in case anyone is interested about the rest of the list, here’s the placements:

Billboard Japan Hot 100 Mid-Year Chart 2024

“Bling-Bang-Bang-Born” / Creepy Nuts
“Bansanka” / tuki.
“Idol” / YOASOBI
“Show” / Ado
“Que Sera Sera” / Mrs. GREEN APPLE
“Kaiju No Hanauta” / Vaundy
“IKUOKUKONEN” / Omoinotake
“SPECIALZ” / King Gnu
“The Brave” / YOASOBI
“Be a flower” / Ryokuoushoku Shakai

Billboard Japan Hot Albums Mid-Year Chart 2024

THE VIBES / SixTONES
17 IS RIGHT HERE / SEVENTEEN
SCIENCE FICTION / Hikaru Utada
THE GREATEST UNKNOWN / King Gnu
SEVENTEENTH HEAVEN / SEVENTEEN
MATCH UP / INI
AWARD / WEST.
Road to A / Travis Japan
PULL UP! / Hey! Say! JUMP
Reboot / TREASURE

Billboard Japan Artist 100 Mid-Year Chart 2024

Mrs. GREEN APPLE
YOASOBI
back number
Ado
Vaundy
Official HIGE DANdism
King Gnu
Creepy Nuts
Yuuri
Aimyon

EDIT 2: I should also define what I’m thinking of when I think “crossover appeal”. It’s bands or artists that are popular both in Japan and a non-Japanese country. The requirement is that you are popular in Japan. Visual kei is not popular in Japan, so there’s no crossover appeal for any visual kei band. Some bands might find moderate online success in niche circles such as ours, but unless you are hitting BABYMETAL levels of saturation I cannot consider that “crossover appeal”.

rsm_rain · June 24, 2024, 9:37pm

respectfully i’d like to disagree with this…
i live in Dallas, which to be fair isn’t representative of the whole english-speaking world lol, or even the US / Texas
but here, i can walk through target and hear Le Sserafim, bad bunny, & Omah Lay on the store PA speakers. you could say Spanish lyrics make perfect sense as enough peoples’ native languagein Texas, but korean and Omah Lay’s languages not as much!

i think it’s more a question of aesthetic - it’s easy enough to hear Nigerian pop music (for the average listener, i mean) and hear similarities to pop, hip-hop, & r&b in the US. I think it’s pretty well documented & not something i should have to introduce in this post that the sound of kpop (mostly) grew from r&b and hip-hop from the US, so the roots are both shared and quite recent!

Conversely, the Nigerian scene’s been closely related to popular styles in North America for a while - Wizkid in particular has done a lot of work with Drake; Omah Lay featured Justin Beiber on a track of his.

Compare this to Japanese music, esp vkei - it’s not uncommon for people in the US around me to draw aesthetic connections to pop music in the 80s. That’s of course, well behind the 80% hit rate “oh it sounds JUST like an anime”.

It’s said by some (i’m not capable of introducing this whole argument in one comment lol so i’ll just reference it) that culminating most visibly in ‘disco demolition night’, the white/straight/mainstream US grew a strong sentiment against sounds and styles of music most closely associated w/ Black & gay artists/audiences; at the time, disco and R&B, which had stylistic influence over mainstream pop of the time.

Japan, i don’t think had the same association; these musical aesthetics weren’t so quickly pulled out of the country’s mainstream palette, which means for a lot of listeners, the things which make Japanese music stand out uniquely against US music are (largely) either Japanese in origin, or from 70s/80s disco and R&B - two styles of music that still aren’t familiar to the mainstream.

Royal Road chord progression being the most famous and often explained…

So a lot of casual US listeners’ touchpoints for associations w/ what they hear from Japan, what sets it aside aesthetically/stylistically from music they’re familiar with, is closely linked with a style famously seen as dated & uncool, or other Japanese cultural exports like anime and childrens’/YA video games, which likewise have negative ‘coolness’ or relatability to them to all but their in-group.

Anyway i hope this all isn’t read as like an attack/argument/disproving what you say (i think we both see a similar end result) but something like a perpendicular direction, just based on my own opinion + what i’ve heard from friends

CervaCannibale · June 24, 2024, 9:44pm

In metal communities probably. Visual kei is not a music genre but a music scene, so various bands from the vk scene can be recognized in their genre.

There were quite some reaction videos for Dexcore’s Skindeep from metal fans. All the ones I saw talked very positiv about them.There were people who recommended them to the reaction channels, the channel people even ask if they will play overseas. Maybe we are just so isolated here, that we don’t realize that there is interest in them?

When I saw Kamijo in Berlin there were a lot of people who didn’t look like they were vk fans. Not even metal guys.

And metal itself is not a genre that is often seen in any charts. But you’d never say Slipknot is not recognized, would you? It just does not makes sense to compare a vk metal band to pop acts and say the metal band is not recognised because pop is in the charts. Especially when OPs question even said “recognized in their genre”.

Tiktok, Animes openings, youtube reactions, festivals…

There is plenty of ways. And again. It is enough to be successful in your scene or genre. It is enough to if it pays the bills. I know for a lot of vk bands it does not pay the bills. But that is the case in every genre and scene. Not everyone can to be the next X oder Taylor Swift. In fact is good that there are smaller artist for all the different tastes in music. Why are we talking about mainstream aaaalll the time. It wasn’t even the question of OP.

The real problem is btw that the money the music industrie (which is doing perfectly fine earning more than ever) makes is not fairly distributed between artists. Especially Spotify’s practice is only benefitting the few very big artists. It will help the bands we like much more if we join people who want to reform this than trying get 3 people more to listen to them. But that is another discussion…

Also OP’s question said japanese bands not vk …

zeus · June 24, 2024, 9:53pm

Don’t worry, it doesn’t.

I took several of the bands in your post and did a quick search to see what is available by me:

Yum

2 for 3 is not bad. Here’s some more:

Now let’s search for some Japanese artists:

So what are some things I notice right away?

Searching “korean album” or “japanese album” returns very similar results. Even when I search J-Pop, I get K-Pop, and vice versa.
BTS, LE SSERAFIM, SEVENTEEN are all artists I could walk into my nearby Target and walk out with an album in my hand. That’s crossover appeal.
There’s a piss-poor representation of non-US media in general, which is not something unique to Japanese music, but they have to deal with it nonetheless.

If the artists at the top are struggling to break through, why would anyone lower even have a shot? Like I said, there’s a galaxy of music between the Top 100 and visual kei, and yet the only thing that’s remotely available by me is a SEVENTEEN album. And by the various searches I did but didn’t post here, they really, really think I’m interested in that SEVENTEEN album.

I’m more likely to find something K-Pop related than J-Pop related.

rsm_rain · June 24, 2024, 9:53pm

but oh to actually answer your question in a bit more optimistic way!

idk anything about the mainstream but if you’re citing jp bands reaching worldwide metalcore circles - if that’s the goal, rather than ‘top of the pops’, then most definitely it’s easy to find examples, limited just by how many scenes i decently know

top of my mind is Boris, who needs no introduction, which is convenient bc they’re absolutely unexplainable
black metal roots → doom → psychadelic → noise - > punk → ??? → pop/electronic, and all the way around again; anyone who likes alternative heavy music has to have heard of them.

Sigh is usually mentioned by anyone who talks about old black metal.

Scenery by Ryo Fukai, i have to admit i’ve not yet heard it myself, but i see it everywhere in ““music people””'s music lists.

I think i’ve seen Ziyou-vachi/Queen Bee make rounds in lgbt circles? Not that those are often terribly far from anime/video games but …

Very prepared to accept i’m wrong on this one, but incidentally Sakanaction was recommended to me by a friend w/ no particular otherwise interest in Japan; they were just a band mentioned in the context of being really good guitars music + synths

And sorry for the most cliche answer of all lol but i’ve actually literally never talked to a metal guy who didn’t at least have a passing familiarity w/ Diru.

Axius · June 24, 2024, 10:03pm

This is a general idea of what i was going for within the topic.

Basically a list of Japanese bands that other people think would get recognized in other music scenes or region’s and maybe a comment of why you think so etc. Visual kei or non-vkei.

While i do understand your point @zeus and agree to a certain degree, respectfully I wanted the topic to be like mentions of bands that other people feel or think would get recognition in other types of music scenes or other parts of the world not in the space the they already exist in. This is not to say that the facts aren’t laid out which you stated but mainly a what if scenario/opinion based topic. I do respect the explanation on visual kei and some facts that you mentioned related to the topic. This might help others gauge on how to answer the topic

Thank you @Rena those bands and that thread. Ill look into that thread in a moment. These were good mentions!

CervaCannibale · June 24, 2024, 10:15pm

I have no idea where you searched so I don’t know what this tells me or how to compare it. I see it’s $ and I am in the EU so I can’t tell from the screenshots what it is

And honestly “Japanese album” is a terrible search term that is of course not bringing up anything substantial.

zeus · June 24, 2024, 10:26pm

I searched Target! I was keeping it in line with what I had mentioned in an earlier post, but I could do with some clarification!

I searched these terms on purpose: of course they are terrible, but what it’s showing is that BTS, LE SSERAFIM, and any other Korean and/or Japanese artists that they have in the system are not tagged well. So it’s a catch-22 of “you can’t find this artist you don’t know you are looking for”. Either you know about BTS and you’re looking for a specific album, or you are looking for “that boy band from Korea my niece is crazy for…what was his name? Gymmin?”. No real in between.

I also have a story I want to add to this. I roll with a group of nerd friends. They watch anime, build gunpla, play Yu-Gi-Oh, read manga, etc. Several of them even began learning the language with Genki, Duolingo, and other apps. They’re the quintessential group of nerds that love different aspects of Japanese culture.

So last week they were going over some grammar and this is basically how the conversation went:

Guy 1: … and that’s the difference between ‘kore’ and ‘sore’
Guy 2:… man that’s complicated! and the pronunciation is hard!
Me: You know what could help? Listening to some Japanese music and watching anime in Japanese! I have a few recomm-
Guy 1: No.
Guy 2: I’m good.

I have another friend who I’ve watched well over 150 anime with. At one point, we were following anime seasonally and watching shows as they came out. Put a gun to his head and challenge him to name ten artists from any anime theme from any anime he’s ever watched, and I guarantee you he’ll get to 6 or 7 before running out.

He’s part of the same group of friends that watch anime and play Yu-Gi-Oh, and they all religiously skip anime intros because of spoilers. Name an anime song? What’s up people?!? is what you’ll get. They won’t even put respect on Nightmare’s name

Out of that entire group of nerds, only two people have ever bothered to humor me and try out Japanese music. One, I managed to sneak visual kei into by going straight to the extreme metal aspect of the scene, stepping over the language barrier, and that seemed to work okay…until I threw in clean singing and totally lost him because, and I quote, “I can only really vibe with lyrics I understand”.

The other friend? Been hovering around the outskirts of Japanese music, enjoys FUZZ by MUCC or some HIGH and MIGHTY COLOR, but throw him anything recent outside that and it’s a guarantee he doesn’t know. He’s more into 70’s J-Pop than anything current!

So it’s like…you’re not wrong, and I desperately want you to be right, but when you have to face challenge after challenge before you even make it into the conversation, and then 95% of people dismiss you out of hand because it’s unfamiliar or has the stink of weeaboo, like how can there be crossover appeal? This is the target demographic, and the target demographic is saying no.

Also, I’m not focusing on us. We’re all a bunch of oddballs who can like and appreciate music outside of a familiar language context. We are the exception, not the rule. I wish we were the rule. I really do.

That’s why I don’t consider Dir en grey or the GazettE in this conversation. I’m not focused on the artists that arguably have crossover appeal, but the ones that don’t but are on the precipice of it…and who is there? JILUKA? Seriously, I throw them in every conversation I can get because I see great things for them.

I am so desperately open to being proven wrong. Someone prove me wrong.

colorfuljinsei · June 24, 2024, 10:29pm

Just to get some of this out of the way:

The whole K-pop vs J-pop things boils down to an export-driven economy vs. a domestically focused one. Soft power expansion though government initiatives, chaebol structures setting the standard*** (not implying that all agencies are affiliated with such, just the framework) and hypercompetiveness, spoken Korean being more approachable to Western listeners (related to phonology that I should really have citations for****) compared to Japanese, and the involvement of Western producers going way back***** are, not exclusively, the reasons for what we see today.

Brief Aside: Not-so-fun fact, the reason why Korean punk and indie didn't flourish like Japan's during the golden years (mid-to-late '00s) involves an incident in 2005 with the punk band "Rux". Two members on stage took off their pants flashing the audience on live TV. Indie appearances on major TV stations were basically banned from 2005~2009 which permanently changed the scene.

Japan never made expansion like that a huge priority, since their economy would do fine w/o. It definitely makes me feel old when young folks don’t remember how “Galapagosian” Japanese media was, for both music and anime about a decade ago, where we had to practically beg to get things done. “Cool Japan”, Japan’s own lackluster government initiative, was largely “directionless”, receiving criticism from those like Gackt in 2015 for “having a huge budget with no idea where it’s supposed to go.”

_

Now, on to the main question. Yeah, for anything to get recognized outside their respective scene requires some sort of online/SNS virality. Bands that were mentioned that brush up with Western -core and punk scenes stand out, but honestly I have a lot of difficulty thinking of any current mainstream bands in both Japan and China that could break out stateside in the way that K-pop has. If Korean Rock isn’t even popular in Korea to begin with, I can’t see some sort of large-scale movement break out here either.

Digging into more of the commentary on here and the “Anison” dilemma. This is reflected with Japanese audiences too, where you have fans of a franchise who don’t delve into anything outside its “orbit”. Most modern anime opening or ending themes could technically stand on their own, but that’s how it’s always been methinks. It’s like fans of the “Transformers” movies who haven’t listened to the rest of Linkin Park’s catalog besides “What I’ve Done”. I’m not going to hold it on them, since everyone has a certain level of involvement or journey with music.

*** Felt a bit iffy on this, as a "chaebol" implies a family-run business structure; however, the K-pop trainee system and C-level exec. selection leans more meritocratic than inherited. Even those who could be considered "nepo-idols", as rare as they are, still have to endure the same rigorous training. —BUT there was recent news of HYBE earning chaebol status, the first time for an entertainment company specifically.

I’d put more emphasis on the competitiveness, rigor, and integrativeness since I don’t want to be talking out my ass.

**** Paraphrasing here, but some English speakers tend to find Korean to be more “natural” compared to other East Asian languages, whatever that implies. Perhaps its cadence or consonant sounds lends itself more to Western music versus something like Japanese, Mandarin, or Cantonese. What I failed to mention was how important “visuals” were. They play a major role in Kpop’s attractiveness.

***** Look up the history of Kpop English demos and Swedish songwriters’ involvement in the genre.

zeus · June 24, 2024, 10:48pm

One more thing I wanted to add since it just jumped into my head.

Same friend has watched over 300 anime. Samurai Champloo is his favorite anime, hands-down. Main reasons include amazing story, excellent sound track, great animations, good ending, great re-watchability.

I asked him to name a Nujabes song that wasn’t “battlecry”. He could not.

Despite Champloo being his favorite anime of all time, and despite being a hip-hop head, and despite partaking in b-boy and light feet culture, and despite having a love of rap and music, he does not fuck with Nujabes. At all. Can’t name a single song. Can’t name a single album. Can’t name a single collab.

I asked him about MINMI and he gave me the quietest response of “yeah, I don’t know who that is”. MINMI, who did the ending of Champloo in Shiki no Uta, complete afterthought.

Loves music, loves the anime, loves the sound track, cannot name anything about the artist beyond that. And has zero interest in doing so, even if I offered to give him everything by Nujabes.

This right here, whatever I’m wildly gesticulating at, is the real issue at hand. It’s the real reason why I don’t think there’s any crossover appeal. Because even amongst all the people that by all accounts should be into this shit, just aren’t. Even when it’s “their favorite anime of all time”. Even when they want to jump more into the language and the culture…there’s this roadblock that stumps almost everyone who isn’t us, and I’m not quite sure why we got over the fence while others get stuck.