Shock Value in VK

[Rena]

“Psychedelic Violence Crime of Visual Shock”, we all know that phrase from X Japan. But what exactly does “Visual Shock” mean for the Visual Kei scene today?

Shock, provocation, and pushing boundaries have always been part of VK in one way or another. Over the years, both the scene and the audience have changed and so have people’s limits and expectations

Now while seeing recent discussions on VKTwt and even on here again, I think it might be worth having a conversation about shock value in Visual Kei.

When does it work? When does it go too far? How do you personally feel about it? Do you think the way bands use visual shock has changed over the years? And where do you think the line between artistic expression and “too much” is today?

I’d honestly love to hear different perspectives on this.

Also I have to give credit where credit is due @starfish originally asked if a topic like this would be considered fine or not, considering our “no politics rule”. So we want to give this a try. We know politics won’t be fully avoidable in the topic, so please be respectful and mindful of each other.

[Xayide]

I think it takes a lot more to shock people nowadays than 30 years ago. And more artists are willing to shock and be extreme than in the 90s - because they feel they need to to get some kind of exposure and attention.

On one hand, with Social Media and all, it is much easier to get your music out there. No need to spend a lot of money to record your songs, fund and organize your own concerts and so on and the beginning of a career.
On the other hand, as so many artists are out there, it is hard to stand out and gain real success.
Just making good music and having at least one charismatic bandmember is not enough anymore. So they have to think of other ways to get people’s attention - and to shock is just one way to do so.

But the more musicians use provocation or shock value, the less outstanding and special it becomes.

Personally, I’m not a fan of calculated shocking and provocating just to get attention. Especially not if it centers around sensitive topics. (That’s also why I don’t like Menhera Key.)

[sayonara_blue]

it doesn’t quite bother me even tho I still have a sceptical eye on it. It’s fine as long as it doesn’t have significant sign or historical messag ebehind it.
To be clear and I think I speak for many of us here, uniforms are overall just pretty and cool aesthetically speaking, so i wouldn’t be the first one to complain :l

shock value wise, it doesn’t bring much, because from experience 1) when they use it, it’s mostly just for aesthetic and doesn’t bring anything knowledgeable to the release.

2 ) when there is actually a meaning behind, it’s the wrong one !!! ( for most of them, not all )

so yeah, congratulations for " shocking " people, but it’s not supposed to be like that. At least the kind of shock value that it worth something, aka bringing attention on some dark part of history or society, and not just shocking people by being an absolute attention seeker with no plus value :l

PS : the thread is about shock value in general but because the hot mess that is Dennousomethingthingy new look is the gossip of the day, i’m basing my opinion on military-kei/uniforms

[sayonara_blue]

a liiiittle addition : I hate policing more than anything. Lettin’ things flop when there is some clumsy/dumb/annoying elements in a new look/new release rather than giving the band what they want aka attention. We saw many times how it doesn’t affect the bands ( unless it concerns Japanese history, VK just doesn’t care about foreigners tbh sadly ). on top of it, it open the gates to a more whiny/annoying kind of policing ( a slightly dark makeup, boxbraids.. ) which would transform visual kei to visual pop instead.

but i kinda do agree with bullying ( which wouldn’t count as bullying in this case ) a band on their social medias when it comes to particularly scandalous things like racism, xenophobia, particuarly shocking signs etc )
The only time i’ve seen wave of comments moving things is for that Grand Guignol band and for akane ( ex D.I.D, but very partially and in a nuanced way to be honest).
even Gulu gulu and Ai’s case only made him more popular, block people on twitter and IG, and come to Europe and his case in particular was a good use of what Shock value is supposed to be. Shock people and dennounce things.

[CervaCannibale]

Since Twitter was mentioned in the initial post, I think nobody should base their own moral compass on Twitter or any other social media platform. They often lack one very important thing: Nuance

You cannot make a list of shocking things that are ok and ones that are not ok. You always have to look at case, context, culture and time.

I personally think that even stuff that is done for attention can still be artistic expression. There is no point in art if we try to only create things that are without any edges and just pleases everyone. I rather have something offensive, that I know is done to ewoke negative feelings than something that is done to promote the questionable thing. To put it a bit easier: a VK band using war footage to make you uncomfortable is not the same as people who use such footage and say “this was great. We need to fight our enemies like this again”.

That does not mean that there are not cases where vk (and art in general) did go too far. We are all free to decide where our line is. Not everything is for everyone. And often I think the best way is to curate your own expirience instead of trying to police others.

Also it is naive to think that oversea fans are the moral authority for vk. And as we can see with the himeyuri case, if the core audience does not receive it well, it has consequences.

In the end, the shock value and edginess is part of vk and when some people on social media are offended every second day, than vk is maybe just not for them and they projected something on it, that it just not is.

[starfish]

Ooops, I indeed meant to start this topic but life has been wildly busy this week, thank you for taking the initiative @Rena !!

I want to preface this by saying that I’m queer, very leftist, probably exactly someone many people expect to be upset by these things, but I’m not, because I feel like by faaaaar most of the time there’s a huge amount of context missed by these controversies.

I originally started thinking about this because someone said kizu wouldn’t do [a thing] (let’s not dwell on the specific politicsy topic as suggested in the OP) for the shock value, and I mean, in general v系 bands absolutely would! An absolutely gargantuan part of v系 IS shock value and has been since the whole Crime of Visual Shock shebang. This is even clearer in the context of Japan, where the whole coloured-hair-piercings-standing-out-from-the-masses, just about all v系 but the softest of soft, is something the average person would consider way more ‘shocking’ (maybe that’s too strong of a word, but hopefully you get my point) than the average European or American.

In my honest opinion, the scene is, especially in its roots, perhaps less so in the late 90s (sure, there were the extreme kote bands and so on, but there was also LUNA SEA and SIAM SHADE and all that going to the opposite direction which were very visible to the general audience), but maybe increasingly so in recent years with the advent of メンヘラ bands, intrinsically about counterculture and shocking people. If you want to completely disregard bands that do / have done shocking and offputing things (even the political ones), you’ll be left with very slim pickings in this particular genre.

But that isn’t inherently negative, which is a vibe I get from people sometimes, increasingly so! Tons of art uses shock value, from visual arts to cinema, and certainly to music! In v系 it is maybe more transparent because of the ‘v’, but the lyrics are full of shock value as well, and often also from bands you wouldn’t expect it. Go and look up the lyrics to マチルダ’s バラバラ, if you don’t know the band beyond what they look like I bet you’ll be surprised. There are countless examples like this, and much, much more explicit and gross and shocking ones.

And very importantly, bringing up a topic doesn’t mean that they’re endorsing it. I doubt anyone thinks that EIJI wants his fans to become a death cult just because of the マカロニ/マツタケワークス song about a real-life cult whose leader made the followers burn themselves alive (certainly not if you’ve met him in person, he’s precious). I think this applies equally to most things, and unless band members do indicate that they support something distasteful with their off-stage personae, I’m not going to condemn them for bringing it up in their music or visuals.

I do wonder if the Western fanbase’s attitude would be different to one direction or another if the lyrics were more widely understood, or if more people still encountered Diru’s OBSCURE PV in their initial foray into the genre? (maybe people who find the shocking things too offputting just wouldn’t have gotten into the scene in the first place?)

[HildaVonEggin]

I’m fine with shock value in VK, as already discussed it’s sort of integrated into its DNA.

I think with the recent military uniforms controversy, it may be an issue of “bad timing” for lack of a better word (because I don’t think a “good timing” exists for shock value, that just makes it irrelevant). I think people might react to this specific aesthetic depending on region, time, and current events (which I will not enumerate in the interest of no politics).

Another thing is, I think we’re also experiencing a different approach to fandom/support with new generations. A lot of fans like to get in touch with the totality of their celebrities, they’re concerned about what their money supports, and who they’re supporting—I also say a good chunk of fans similarly don’t want to get cancelled themselves so they distance themselves from things deemed problematic haha

[zeus]

The thing about shock value with respect to military uniforms is that it is almost always in reference to the Nazis first, and imperialistic Japan second. Think about that - Japan’s own expression of WWII military garb takes a backseat to Germany’s expression and military garb. Besides the reason that it looks cool, why is that? What does the Nazi outfit mean in the context of these photo shoots and PVs? I have never once in my life seen any band cosplay the Americans during WWII, the Soviets during WWII, hell even finding vaguely military inspired photo shoots with no explicit reference to any time period is hard. And forget about WWI. No band has ever really cosplayed military units from WWI. It’s like that one doesn’t exist or something.

So no, I don’t buy the fact that these band men don’t “understand” it. They are grown ass men and they know that it has shock value at least. Whether some of them put 2 and 2 together is a different topic entirely, but bands do it because it has shock value and it has shock value because it references a slew of atrocities and war crimes. That’s always edgy. But they know better than to cosplay or reference something like Unit 731 because lots of Japanese associated WWII imagery is too much shock value. Even the imperial rising sun might be a stretch too far for some people. That’s why Grand Guignol got cancelled for their Himeyuri girls “interpretation” (I’m not sure what to call that scandal) and why Sable Hills got into a lot of heat for their Unit 731 merch.

These grown men know where the line is with respect to their own culture and toe it accordingly, and they could care less about what outsiders think.

[CervaCannibale]

You basically said the same I wanted say but you put it better into words

[ANOMIE]

I think the only shock in visual kei right now is the shock that they don’t care about what we think. I’ve not seen anything really new from these indie bands, they’re reheating old nachos with the uniform look. If anything it feels more like its capitalizing on fetish. Maybe they should give dressing up as sexy firemen a try.

As for me personally, I’m not part of this newer generation that feels compelled to police and call things out. If the music is good I’ll listen, if it rubs me the wrong way, I’ll keep scrolling.

[Rena]

Welp the military aesthetics make eben musicians wonder by now

Original Post

[HildaVonEggin]

i didn’t realize they almost never reference Japanese WWII aesthetics, lot of food for thought there I do wonder how much choice the band men have though. Perhaps it’s the decision of their stylist.

[sayonara_blue]

Riki are you with us ? Are you with us Riki ?
or maybe he saw the comments in that band’s post lol

[thetortavendor]

Shock value is pretty much ingrained in rock music overall, hard to separate it really. Even KISS as tame as they are were considered shocking.

As long as its done in a way that augments the music/concert experience, most shock value is fine to me. Most bands nowadays don’t really seem to be doing anything too extreme outside of Senketsu. Bands using militarv uniforms end up switching out to new visuals in a few months anyways and everyone forgets.

Although, Dir En Grey would be called problematic by this tiktok gen of fans if they were releasing Obscure or AGSOM today. Plus Kyos onstage antics

[GreatNorthernVK]

I suppose we’re really having a couple of different conversations here. First, shocking by whose definition?

What Japanese audiences find shocking and what Western audiences find shocking are two different things.

Unless you have a case like with Grand Guignol where they specifically referenced Japanese victims of WWII, I’ve yet to see a case where Japanese fans found war imagery offensive or shocking. You see an indies band post their obligatory military uniform shoot (almost always with Nazi or Imperial Japan allusions), and the typical response is “Cool! Kawaii! ”

And then the band looks at five positive reactions from Japanese fans, and then are hit with the 50 negative reactions from international fans. And most of them don’t even think “Oh, our foreign fans are mad.”, it’s “Oh, random foreigners that don’t listen to us are mad. lol”

So, was Shock even their intention in that case? I would argue No.

While it is so common as to become a VK trope, I think the simpler answer may be the right one. There’s a stylist out there that just really, really likes these types of uniforms and there are only so many stylists that work mainly in VK spaces. Most bands, even smaller indies bands, would rather just pay a stylist to costume them than go DIY their outfits and risk looking sloppy.

Now, was it Karasu’s intention? It very well could have been. Given that he was also repeating far-right nationalist slogans during GG shows, and his foreign gya who lived there tried to ask him to stop to no avail, it’s just as likely that his intention was to go nuclear on his fanbase, offending them from both ends.

I think that our perception of the fanbase being less sensitive in prior generations may have more to do with us being less invested in the exact meaning of everything. We understood that we didn’t necessarily have the full context behind everything a band ever did, so while a lot of us did look at the edgy stuff and , we a) didn’t have as much access to the artist to go complain, and b) didn’t want to look like a fool because we couldn’t understand Japanese well and didn’t realize that a verse line in a song had an anti-war message, or something.

[Heyt]

People’s skin has become thinner over time instead of growing insensitive. The trip of calling our others’ behavior is too powerfull to ignore for some people, I suppose.

[blossomingRuin]

I feel like shock factor only works when there is a clear distinction between real life and the virtual reality.

[Kumanosuke]

Crossing the line:

• Blackfacing
• Wearing Nazi uniforms, doing a (Hitler) salute, wearing red armbands with dehumanized “people” being depicted on the floor

[starfish]

Really good points here all in all.

I’ve yet to see a case where Japanese fans found war imagery offensive or shocking.

I would say that it’s not necessarily about shocking/offending fans, but to be something that your average Japanese person would find shocking, which is a far (far far far) lower bar. And certainly includes the military costumes, maybe not for the same reasons, but more in the sense of, ‘military outfit while showing skin/dressing rebelliously’ is considered improper. This is true for many more visual themes though, and all of them are united in that the gya just think it’s hot or cute

Given that he was also repeating far-right nationalist slogans during GG shows, and his foreign gya who lived there tried to ask him to stop to no avail

For me this teetered a bit too close to being uncomfortable, given how close to real life it is, it’s much harder to make the argument that it’s just a historical/literary/whatever reference. Hitchcock had a lot of songs with very questionable themes and live elements that would’ve absolutely gotten tons of pushback from the overseas fans if they’d seen it (and whenever it popped up, like Karasu’s suicide antics, it did), but it was never rooted in present-day reality in quite the same, explicit, way. As an ex-サイコ (although not specifically a Karasu-gya), I did try to still give him the benefit of the doubt, but…

I think that our perception of the fanbase being less sensitive in prior generations may have more to do with us being less invested in the exact meaning of everything.

Maybe there’s a difference in the fanbase we’ve encountered and / or been a part of, but I for sure feel like a lot of the newer v系 fans I’ve encountered are hopelessly oblivious about so many things about the scene and its history that used to be considered completely standard knowledge. A lot of the younger overseas fans I’ve talked to (mostly in person, I rarely interact with the community online, as you can see from my post history here…) just seem to go “ooh pretty boys”, and while this was always an aspect for a good reason, they are pretty, in my opinion people used to be way more aware about the themes and lyrics, the general perception of v系 in Japan, live etiquette, just about everything related to the scene than they are these days. There are absolutely exceptions, of course.

[Xayide]

As of now, I think everyone who contributed something in this topic is a little “older” and mature enough to understand that a lot of the shocking or provocating elements VK artists use are merely some kind of artistic or aesthetic tool.
Just as we know that a lot of bandomen have a stage persona that is not necessarily exactly like the real person behind it. Sometimes it can be kind of an exaggerated version of themselves, sometimes they are playing a role that is very different than they are in private life. Or they just let us see the sides of them they want us to see.

But most VK Fans are very young and lack this kind of understanding, of distinguishing. They are vulnerable and very impressionable.
And that is exactly why I wrote that I don’t like Menhera Kei because I feel that this can be a dangerous and damaging influence for teenagers.

I think the respective age plays a very big role how shock value is understood and categorized.