Your thoughts on the perception that VK singers aren't very good?

Japanese Music
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So I’m aware this thread might be slightly controversial, but I feel it’s an important discussion to have… or at least I’m actually very curious what people think to give myself some sort of peace of mind.

I’ve noticed that Visual Kei (VK) singers often face criticism for their vocal style, sometimes being described as ‘bad’ or even compared to a goat or wounded animal. Funny enough, much of this criticism comes from within the VK fan community.

As someone who is passionate about VK and sings it, I have an appreciation for the stylish and emotive qualities of VK vocals. But while I also sing in other styles, VK holds a special place in my heart. However, I get the impression some fans have this attitude that VK (Especially the ‘rare’ bands within the scene) just plain suck but are fun to listen to anyway… essentially making VK about to be some sort of guilty pleasure.

From my perspective as a singer, I think it’s much more complicated.

While it’s true that many lesser-known VK singers from the mid-2000s and earlier may not have been very polished singers, which especially shows during live performances, the level of vocal skill in the VK indies scene has DEFINITELY improved in recent years.

Even then, I think what makes a singer good or bad is so much more complex than many people realize. Singing is a form of artistic expression and I value not just technical skill, but also the ability for a singer to color a room with their voice, and tell a story through the rhythm. You don’t have to be able to belt like Mariah Carey, or sing with grit like Dave Grohl to be able to showcase unique vocal skill.

Ultimately, everyone should just enjoy the music they love of course, regardless of others’ opinions. I just hope if people decide to weigh in their opinions this thread can foster a civil and productive conversation. ^^

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It breaks down like this for me.

There are a few vocalists who I would consider extremely skilled. Kamijo, Asagi, Gackt, hell even Sho from DIMLIM would count for me.

There are a lot of vocalists that I enjoy even though I wouldn’t consider them upper echelon. And they are good too! Satoshi from girugamesh, Mao from Sadie, Kyo from Dir en grey all count for me here. Honestly, most bands fit here. A band is a business, and if your vocalist isn’t getting people engaged in your music than your business is not booming. You need a good vocalist. You want a good vocalist.

There are some vocalists I enjoy that I am aware are an acquired taste. Mio from NAZARE fits into this bucket for me. His uncleans are brutal, arguably among the best in the scene right now, if not ever, but his clean singing is a little more polarizing. It is what it is. Not all vocals are for everyone.

And then there are just some people who should never, ever be put near a microphone. The guy from Seeles Klar Unend, Maria Cross, the guy from idiot, etc. This is the exception, not the rule, and we should not use the worst of the scene to judge the whole scene.

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hey, i wonder if you might be confusing what some of us consider friendly teasing as actual dislike?

Not saying it’s a purely american thing, i’m sure it isn’t, but just as an example i know it’s a way that americans speak/write that can confuse Japanese readers, esp if the two aren’t aware of the other perception.

Like for example. I followed someone online who, any chance they got, would refer to The Gallo JoJo as three goats in a trenchcoat. But this person hosted a whole website where they translated every Gallo lyric with detailed footnotes and research!

Ofc that one incident of a teenager photoshopping Ryuya’s head on a train and getting told to take it down by Issei, bc in his mind that was insults and mocking, rather than friendly memes and a bit of marketing the girl, in her culture/circles meant it as.

On the other hand, i don’t like talking about skilled/unskilled as i think skills are more like a sphere than a line (infinite different directions, some overlapping, some unrelated, some opposite)
But most vkei singers are not classically trained; most aren’t trained at all and have developed their own styles independently.

It’s also a scene where “standing out” is more important & sought after than “getting it right”. Especially w/ tuning plugins like Melodyne, which vkei as a scene is much less afraid to use than say, US metal.

(Sorry for citing the US so much in a global forum lol but i live here & can talk about here making the least assumptions)

Also, i might challenge the thought that the vocal skill of indiez bands has improved significantly - i think what’s happened is vocal processing has become more accessible, and more easily utilized by artists further and further from majour labels.

I always cite Scapegoat for being the best example of this - compare 迷走トワイライト 2009 vs 2018.

Everyone says Haru used to be such a bad singer, oh thank god around the first album he learned how to sing - but as an amateur vocal engineer myself, i hear both releases and i think it’s not that his singing changed any, at all. But the processing, as soon as they got signed on a larger label, became less transparent, and much more solidly, stably, compressed and tuned. The confidence his voice seems to be lacking is brought in by software. And it sounds great, i love his vocals - but i think they’ve always been great, just in one (less usual) style before the first album, and in another good more common style after.

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Most singers are not very good compared to what’s out there. VK is no better or worse. A lot of people tend to make the mistake of hearing something that doesn’t have traditional elements of the music they’re familiar with and assume it’s a mistake. For example goat vibrato in metal - which is its own technical skill.
Also Kyo is goat of metal vocals (including singing) his only flaw is inconsistancy in performances due to using cool sounding but damaging vocal techniques. A necessary trade off to me and apparently to him.

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when u stop listening to kyo for months and go back. he sounds like hes gargling and/or has a cold while singing

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I think the nasal thing you’re describing is due to vocal strain. It’s pretty prominent on Arche and recently Erosio. I love those albums but am not a huge fan of the nasalness. Most of his singing isn’t like that though.

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also as much as i hesitate to mention the guy bc of the cartoon character he’s become - listening to Merveilles, it’s clear to me Gackt’s vocals aren’t just on another tier but in a whole different paradigm than just about every other vocalist in vkei.

I actually don’t know who to compare him to and say they can perform close or comparable (plz correct me if u know someone!) and even in other music around the world, i still don’t have too many points of comparison. What i find myself impressed by (ironically enough) is his restraint, followed by control over wide dynamics of volume making hairpin turns to match the music.

But all that considered, i don’t think there’s any album i’d point to from another band and say oh, it’d be better if Gackt sung this. Or, oh, it’d sound better if they sang w/ Gackt’s style and technique.

Also i promise to never simp for this man again outside this one post :no_mouth:

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The last few there was very offensive

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I would say that most VK vocalists and their singing styles do not match up with what is considered “good” singing, especially in the west. But that’s honestly my favorite thing about the genre. It’s a singing style that has developed over a long time, drawing from Japanese heritage, western rock influence, and modern culture from all over the world, as well as the inner culture of vk itself.
So when I hear Kyo from DeG and think about his insane vocal range and obvious talent, I also recognize that he has struggled to control his voice and hold a note at times. But it’s the emotional and expressive nature of VK bands that I enjoy.
Some people hear it and think “who gave this guy a microphone?” And honestly? That’s their loss if they can’t appreciate music that doesn’t fall into their narrow view of “good”

(All just my opinion, but this is why Japanese bands that just sing like American pop rock or pop metal bands are so boring.)

That’s just my perspective though.

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I WAS WONDERING IF ANYONE ELSE THOUGHT THAT TOO

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Sometimes kyo sounds to me like he have an lisp. Like there is a bit of unintended air in the vowels.

Also, there was many reports that from a Japanese point of view that VK vocalists do a bit of an distinct “Voice”

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Whether it’s a change in motivations with the times or some other factor (within the artists I frequent, maybe the vocaloid/utaite to vk pipeline bringing on more passionate vocalists), I do agree that there’s been an upward trend in “vocal ability” amongst indies. Even for vocalists in the kirakira subgenre, probably most notorious for leaning into pitch correction, which tbf does match the theme, you hear a lot more stability across the board**, nowadays.

Now, in some instances I’ve picked up on issues with vocal stamina and straining in live performances, but again, not really necessary to nitpick every vocalist, and it happens to most.

**Now this clearly omits the spawned-off alt-idol groups with only 2~3 decent singers carrying the rest. Very obvious in that case.

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Visual Kei is a genre that prioritizes artistic expression and visual aesthetics. The vocal style in VK often reflects this, with singers employing unconventional techniques to convey emotion and fit the theatrical nature of their performances. This can include dramatic vibrato, unusual phrasing, and even intentional vocal distortions. To fans who appreciate this style, these qualities are integral to the music’s charm and identity.

VK singers often prioritize emotional delivery over technical precision. The genre is known for its dramatic and emotive performances, which can sometimes lead to vocals that sound raw or unpolished. For fans who value the emotional impact of music, this can be more important than technical perfection.

The level of formal vocal training among VK singers varies widely. While some may not have the technical prowess found in more mainstream genres, others have significant skill and training. Over the years, the scene has seen an improvement in vocal technique among newer bands, reflecting a trend towards higher production values and professional development.

One common criticism of VK singers comes from live performances, where the energy and movement of the show can impact vocal delivery. It’s worth noting that many genres struggle with the difference between studio recordings and live sound. The demands of VK performances, which often include elaborate costumes and energetic stage antics, can make it even more challenging to maintain vocal quality live.

It’s interesting that much of the criticism comes from within the VK community itself. This could be due to a variety of factors, including high expectations from dedicated fans or a nostalgic preference for earlier iterations of the genre.

As the VK scene evolves, so do the standards by which fans judge vocal performances. What was acceptable or even celebrated in the early days of VK might not meet the expectations of today’s listeners, who have access to a wider array of music and higher production standards.

Ultimately, the perception of whether a singer is “good” or “bad” is highly subjective. Fans of VK often appreciate the genre for its unique combination of music, fashion, and theatricality, which includes a distinct vocal style. What some might hear as a lack of technical skill, others might interpret as a unique and expressive voice.

VK is a genre deeply rooted in Japanese culture, and its aesthetic and stylistic choices can sometimes be misunderstood or undervalued by those unfamiliar with its context. Appreciation for VK vocals often requires an understanding of the genre’s cultural and artistic nuances.

In conclusion, the perception that VK singers aren’t very good is a complex issue influenced by subjective taste, evolving standards within the genre, and the balance between technical skill and artistic expression. For those passionate about VK, the emotional and stylistic qualities of the vocals are often more significant than technical precision. Encouraging a civil and productive conversation about this can help foster greater appreciation and understanding of the diverse qualities that make VK unique.

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Very relevant comment! You summarized the VK scene very well. :sunglasses:

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Very well put, much like my opinion but more elaborated. I appreciate this point of view a lot.

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Most VK singers for bands I enjoy are decent singers, maybe not the greatest but they get the job done and may have their own unique styles which may not click with everyone. What I would consider a legitimately good vocalist is somebody who is highly skilled in many different styles, Kyo and Sho from DIMLIM are bith great examples of this. As much as I like The Gazette I dont consider Ruki a top tier vocalist as although he does have versatility I just dont think he is AMAZING at any particular style, he fits in the category of “decent enough to get the job and not unpleasant to listen to”. But where I can understand criticisms is vocalists like Lime from Kizu, some people absolutely love him but personally i dont find he has the versatility to make a truly amazing vocalist and honestly (although i still enjoy their music) his voice is a bit grating for me and I dont always enjoy listening to it so can only listen to them when in the right mood which is not ideal to not be able to enjoy music at a specific moment because “can I really be arsed to put up with his vocals today?” I have the same issue with Kiryu, music is great but just dont always enjoy the vocals. So in this sense I cant say these guys are great singers because they dont have the most pleasant voices to actually listen to (imo). Agree with Zeus on Mio as well, his cleans are a bit like this for me as well.

Also can understand people being frustrated by the amount of over processing on vocals these days, Ryuga (RAZOR) is a great example of this, where the voice sounds almost robotic and masks any of that unique flare from that specific vocalists actual voice. For them it doesnt bother me as feel it sorta does work with their overall style but can see why people wouldnt like this.

So I guess my bottom line really is that as long as the vocals dont ruin the overall listening experience for you then the vocalist is probably good enough for your tastes.

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It’s probably because a vast majority of Japanese/Visual Kei singers have a strong nasal quality to their singing and it’s an acquired taste. And in a lot of cases, it’s downright bad.

Mao and Ruki are some of the worst offenders, Gackt as well.

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I’m sorry, but maybe should start by understanding what good vocals are? It’s ridiculous that someone considers Kamijo or Sho (Dimlim) to be really good vocalists.
Kyo produces a lot of different sounds that aren’t exactly vocals. It’s sound versatility, not vocal versatility at all. He has an overly compressed sound in the upper range, his intonation isn’t good, and it seems his diction isn’t clear. I respect him as an artist, but he has a lot vocal flows, I can’t call him even really good vocalist.
Lime has much more clean vocals ability to sound well in different ways, he has basic extreme vocal skills too. And for me his tone is exceptionally beautiful. Ruki despite not really wide range has more true vocal talent than Kyo. Range means nothing if it doesn’t work well.

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I think all the diffrent answers in this thread show that what most people consider “good vocals” is highly influnced by personal taste.
There surely are objective ways to judge vocal techniques but that’s probably not what the average listern cares about anyway.

Especially the “aquired taste vocals” seem super subjective. I don’t think anything about Lime’s voice is unpleasent and needs an aquired taste. I on the other hand can’t listen to Ryutaro (Plastic Tree) but a lot of people surely enjoy his voice.

Everybody can learn to sing to a degree but voices have a natural sound and even a perfect technique is useless if people don’t like a voice.

I agree that Kyo is a great artist and he is a good enough singer to make Dir en grey work.

And that’s not only true for Vk but for most music. A mediocre singer can get much more famous than someone insanely talented.

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Sounds produced with the tissues involved in vocalization are vocals even if they’re non-traditional. Disagreed with a lot of other things as well but I’d have to gather up a bunch of comparison clips to make my case. @CervaCannibale has a good take on this whole issue above.

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