Post your "UNPOPULAR" Japanese music opinions! / aka "HOT TAKES" :P

Yes, exactly. It comes down to differences in the comfort level with not being directly connected to the reality, I feel. The overseas fandom of old was okay with piecing together what we could from a few interviews that people managed to translate, whatever music we could download and then eventually import, whatever hidden English messages we could find in linear notes in the booklets. It was half of the fun. We were separated from the Japanese fandom, and so we did our own thing.

Today? People aren’t comfortable eating fish nuggets with a side of fish shaped Oreos, they want to swim with the fish. To an extent, myself included, or else I wouldn’t dedicate 10 weeks this year to getting that itch out of my system. By the next opportunity I get, I’ll be too old.

My main point, I guess, is that people should try and consider where other people are in their fandom journey, I suppose. I’ve always maintained that the overseas and Japanese fandoms are entirely different entities, and so are the concert experiences.

3 Likes

Sometimes I miss those times :pensive:
Maybe the problem is also just that I grew older and I’ve seen fandoms where it’s not fans beefing with each other constantly because you can’t have two honmei’s and other dumb stuff

Back in the days there we were scared of furious japanese bangyas
But now we have foreign bangyas in Japan, that should know better, being the same

I think the part why I oppose judging it like this is also because a lot of VK fans get pissed at you when you say VK bands operate similar to Idol groups.
So if they don’t operate similar, then we shouldn’t compare them, even if their tour is organized by a k-pop specialized company

Although I so get your reasoning on that too

2 Likes

Someone on twitter recently was like “if you don’t know the furi then you shouldn’t stand in the front! it ruins the show also you could get hurt idc if it’s your first concert with this band! go stand in the back!”

the next time I decided to take a lovely scroll down my timeline on twitter someone was like “there are rules to vkei rather your overseas or not”

each happened within like the same week of each other

I happily walked back to my band guys only notifications and went back to silent fangirling over there new posts

3 Likes

Honestly, this works both ways. “If you don’t know there will be moshpits at western vk concerts don’t stand in the front rows. You could get hurt.”

In the end you should inform yourself a little bit when going to a concert in another country or another genre than you are used to. But you should also be considerate of others. It’s always the middle ground we should aim for.

The tweets sounds like one end of the extrem and very entitle. Especially because you usually can’t get into the front row without getting better tickets through FC membership or ticket lottery… so people “paid” for their frontrow place in a way.

Also It’s not like furi is some super complicated shit. And it doesn’t matter if you do the exactly correct hand movement. A 5 year old can copy the person next to them good enough. It’s not like we accidentaly summon satan if we do it slightly wrong lol

3 Likes

Yeah it was one of those extreme entitled ones not really the “hey, you could get hurt were saying this for your safety! no dancing sheep band men above your head due to head injuries” the comments were pretty much the same entitlement

It was people bashing on mostly western audiences getting front row tickets only to not know the furi dances…cause it might been there first time and getting super pissy about it with random vkei accs going “well! just to state my opinion on the matter you guys really shouldnt! it ruins the show!! idc if it’s your first time wahh wahh”

Like, I wouldn’t recommend a fresh newbie with no concert experience attend Slaughter to Prevail one of the most heaviest metal bands with bat sht audience constant wall of death, mosh pits, crowd surfers etc but that’s cause of safety not cause I wish to be entitled fan

Usually the goal is to summon satan depending on how insane the vocalist is Karasu summoned one last night

3 Likes

It was probably to aim at the already disagreement about Jiluka concerts fans discovered recently not everyone attends Jiluka to mosh or do furi dances and well…that is apperently not allowed according to entitled Jiluka fans

If it was about acutal safey at heavy moshed or furi bands then yeah, safey is number 1 it’s not a joke no matter what row you landed or paid for but it was mostly entitled people

3 Likes

Yes, I noticed too that this discourse always seems to rear its head the second that fans outside of Japan get something for themselves.

Part of me is wondering if this is a two sided communication breakdown between newer fans trying to seem like they’ve been around for longer vs. Lifestyle bangya in Japan who haven’t been to a western concert in years, if ever.

Someone was referring to girls on TikTok saying that “you don’t have to do furi in the Saizen”. Which, if they’re using the word properly* well, yeah, for most bands, you are expected to know the furi well enough to guide people.

My asterisk for “properly” using the word Saizen is for pointing out that Saizen culture is exclusively a Japanese phenomenon. It simply does not apply outside of that context.

This is a probably a miscommunication between newer foreign fans thinking that Saizen is just another way of saying front row that they need to use to avoid looking like a “Panpi”, vs. Lifestyle bangya not remembering that concert culture is different in the west.

Can you imagine trying to apply Saizen culture to shows in America, for instance?

At a Dance Gavin Dance concert, clinging to the barricade. A blonde lady with temporary strawberry and robot with human hair face tattoos approaches you

Her: “Erm…excuuuse me. You’re in my spot”
You: “Uh, no…I got here as soon as doors opened. If you were here before and left, that’s on you.”
Her: “Oh, I just got here. But you don’t seem to understand. I’ve been following the band around all year. This is, like, my 36th show this year and 97th overall. I’m totally their biggest fan!”
You: “Good for you, then I guess you’ll live for not being in the front row for one show”
Her: “But you don’t get it, that’s my spot. I always stand in front of Jon Mess, because he’s my little baby meow meow boo”
You: sighs “FML”

This simply doesn’t happen over here. Being a long term super fan doesn’t grant you automatic deference. You get to the spot first and defend it, it’s yours.

Still, it doesn’t seem to stop some people from trying to insist that overseas shows should adhere to Japanese rules despite the majority of people going to them not being familiar with said rules.

6 Likes

Yoshiki with his :sparkles:divine and rich aura :sparkles: is a good example of a low-born person raised in an actual village in the period when the most of the Japanese people were rich enough to buy brands as if it was uniqlo.

It’s been 28 days since anyone posted in this topic, so I’m here to stir the pot. I’ve got an unpopular opinion for the ages that I’ve been stewing on for a bit. I think I found the words to express myself. This might make you angry. Or it might make you think. Just a warning.

So there’s a new branch of visual kei bubbling to the surface that I’ve seen called “idol visual kei” or “visual kei idols”, and I’ve seen a lot of negative reaction to it. LYL and GE’LMINATii are two quick examples, but this negative reaction extends past these bands to visual-adjacent alternative ones such as Aldious and BABYMETAL. I assert that these bands are met with hostility - or at the very least are not accepted with open arms - because it threatens the parasocial relationship between fan and musician that intersect at Sexuality Boulevard.

Let me put it to you another way: I’ve been the token straight black man in this scene since 1999. Not once has my sexuality crossed paths with my status as a visual kei fan. I never fell in love with an artist because I was attracted to them, had any sexual fantasies with any visual kei artists past or present, or thought about moving to Japan and joining the lifestyle. I never fell that deep down the rabbit hole, no doubt because visual kei is selling a fantasy primarily to women and gay men. I’m in neither category.

I like the aesthetics and the focus on visuals that the scene is known for, but in my two decades of being a fan, I have never had sex marketed to me. These new crop of visual kei idol bands inverts this dynamic. It’s almost as if someone in Japan had a realization that maybe visual kei could be for straight guys too, if you make a couple of substitutions!

Look no further than most erotic band or Post Every Time An Old JRock Man Is Hot threads to see what I see. I have no beef with these topics, but I want to make it crystal clear that there isn’t a single post in that topic that features female aesthetics…because there isn’t a lot to choose from!

For fans like me, there has been no eye candy! Until now. Which is why when it comes to the topic of whether these visual kei idol bands are “true” visual kei, they are. How can you say if something is visual kei or not when we have a notoriously difficult time nailing down the definition? If someone says they are, and they look and play the part, then they are! Even if they aren’t selling you the fantasy.

Cuz I’ve been in this scene since 1999 and I haven’t said much about how sexualized visual kei is. I let people have at it. But it is, and you’d have to write a thesis and source a lot of different perspectives to make me think it’s not. It almost goes without saying. It’s very easy to draw parallels to visual kei and boy bands - show your neighbor and they’ll do it for you. Visual kei as it is is basically boy bands that play rock and metal with a healthy dose of kayfabe, so what’s the deal if you substitute boy with girl and have girl bands with aesthetics that play rock and metal?

The fantasy, that’s what.

For once, I’m having this fantasy sold to me. It’s like being thirsty and not knowing what water is, while fellow fans can quench their thirst to no end.

Let. Me. Have. This.

While I’m on this point, visual kei fans arguing about what is and isn’t visual kei has huge punk energy. And by that, I mean that y’all sound the same as fans from punk from the 1950’s and 1960’s who vehemently argued that sounds such as hardcore, new wave, and post-punk are not “real punk”.

Look at where that got the old school punk scene. Nowhere. They don’t even fucking exist.

So just because an alternative current of visual kei crops up to address a gap in the market that’s been there since day one does not mean that your current fantasy is threatened. Both types of bands can co-exist. They should co-exist. The fact that I refer to boy bands as “visual kei” and girl bands as “alternative idol” reinforces the dichotomy I’m trying to tear down.

That dichotomy has to go. For visual kei to survive, it must adapt. That partially means expanding to new markets, even if that means selling sex to men. Move your fantasy over, because mine is coming through!

And if you think halls full of sweaty men ogling female talent dancing on the stage is hella creepy, congrats, now you know how I’ve felt all this time!

Also, I know someone’s gonna bring it up, so don’t. Do not talk to me about exist†trace as if the sole existence of one band with all female members somehow invents an entire scene of similar bands. It doesn’t. exist†trace is an aberration - one that exists in spite of itself - and screams of “token black friend” energy. They aren’t even that popular anymore! You’re gonna need more than a handful of one-off bands with a female vocalist that lasted a few years before you convince me that the scene has changed it’s tune about cultivating and growing female talent - and these new crop of bands such as LYL are exactly what I’m talking about!

9 Likes

Are there really any people saying VKei isn’t sexual ? It took me a while to get comfortable with other VKei fans because they are constantly horny. And I as another straight man just never cared for it

3 Likes

Plenty of people in this community have passed that stage of Vkei we touched some grass breathed some air and now just talk about there music or make fun of there latest looks

10 Likes

I really appreciate u saying this bc despite not caring much for the idol sound myself, and being particularly uninterested in anything more denpa - i still feel so compelled to defend these same groups whenever they get shat on on here

I mean different tastes and all, but i have zerrrrooo interest in listening to Anti-Feminism or Seikima II or whatever they’re called with the space alien cosplay(?).
But i, and other people who aren’t into that side of the scene, for the most part don’t go into their fans’ spaces complaining they’re ruining our idea of vkei - it’s more of an “oh that’s not for me, they seem good at it tho, but i’m happy over here”

I’ve actually kept finding myself in alt-idol group’s places as a side effect of how much i love Japan guitars music coupled with the near inability to hear any female voices in it - aside from ofc like you say, lightning in a bottle one-offs like Exist Trace or things like Kaguya from Yumeleep resigning bc of how she was treated, even with keeping her gender ambiguous

I don’t know why we get this impression that vkei is so fragile some young women or guys singing roles written from then is gonna close down livehouses and fold record labels

And i mean come on, if you say you don’t fuck w/ idol, okay i can get where you’re coming from but check out for example 遂に死 by BiSH and tell me that’s not more 2000s Speed-Disk aesthetic than bands signed to Speed-Disk right now (not that i don’t love both…)

There’s just so much more potential to this side of the scene, and the possibility to hear from a lot more new people; i wish overall, even if it’s not necessarily for us, we’d be a bit more chill about letting it develop without getting attacked and seeing if it grows into anything we’re more into

Edit to add: and i think Ruka was really onto something with the twoman shows/CDs with BiS/BiSH. There’s crazy crossover appeal, entirely untapped potential - seems like artists are all very aware of w/ how much vkei borrows from idol and alt idol borrows from vkei - but as fans we’re hesitant to catch on

5 Likes

:handshake:

I arrived at this conclusion with a thought experiment I’ll call the “Hypotheical Aldious Experiment”. And I’ll make it clear through online translators too: this never happened!

But let’s pretend that Aldious announced a new single. It’s a fun summertime jam, and they have a themed promotional pic to go along with it. It’s just them in bikinis and swimsuits.

I could practically see fans bursting a blood vessel now.

“This is needless sexualization in visual kei!”
“They’re dressed like this because they have no skill. The music should speak for itself.”
“DAE think Aldious is setting unrealistic body expectations with this new promotional picture?”

Yet every time I see a JILUKA announcement, I have to see this:


Pictures so suggestive my wife questions me every time it flashes past my screen. Is this not needless sexualization? Is this not unrealistic body standards? Shouldn’t Sena’s skill speak for itself?

Yet I shut up, scroll past the pics, and enjoy the music anyway.

And it’s not that I necessarily have a problem with Sena’s thighs (they’re practically the fifth member of JILUKA at this point), but the fact that women are relegated to not expressing themselves at all, while Sena can get away with exposure to this degree, is very telling double standards. He can basically look like Lightning from FF13 in a bikini, and all is cool in the hood, but put an actual woman in a bikini there and we have problems.

There is a huge, almost fundamental lack of female expression, aesthetics, and representation in visual kei, and untapped potential to go along with that. I think we all lose out because of it.

Which is why they went and made their own scene.

So yeah, when it comes to this new style of visual kei featuring female talent, just do what I’ve done for the last two decades - shut up, scroll past the pics, and enjoy the music for what it is. Or don’t.

6 Likes

One thing to be mindful of is that these “alternative” idol groups, a term that’s coined by overseas fans, have been around for a long time, now. Rock and punk-rock influenced groups like BiS especially come to mind, with that PV of them running around au naturel. Sure, things have become much more “specialized”, but you could extrapolate that out to other industries like manga, virtual idols, etc. Escapism and parasociality amongst the Japanese is at an all-time high.

Underground idol and visual kei culture rubs shoulders, in fact they, for the most part, share the same live venues and livehouses that all the other underground, indie, etc. acts share. It’s nightlife and everyone has their own flavor of enjoyment, parasocial or not.

Honestly, the noise is a bunch of gaijin hoopla that gets occasionally stoked whenever a new group comes out with one of our own (vk musicians) at the helm.

*Forgot to tie this all up… Listen and indulge in whatever strokes your goat, floats your boat, throats your moat, and pay no mind to the noise. In JP-land things move on as usual.

7 Likes

Okay honestly it’s really interesting you mention them bc i have almost exactly the opposite thought / complaint about them, Scandal, Mary’s Blood, and it’s why i’ve not checked them out! (please know, i’m describing this as a Me Problem, not complaining @ them)

Every time i see a Scandal / Aldious cover, it’s just, them
Just a (perfectly nice) band photo of four or five well-dressed stylish ladies

Okay, right, but where’s the album cover? What’s the album about??

Sometimes vkei bands do the same thing and i think ah, maybe they had no budget this time. Or the release got rushed, so they slapped this on, alright. But then by the next release, there’s a cool original #aesthetic style again.

What i’m half-implying (bc i don’t know if it’s really the case or not…) is i wonder if female vkei or vkei-adjacent bands get their faces and bodies leaned into by the label so much so that they’re not able to have their own aesthetic centered around the music.

Exist Trace broke this mold ofc, but that’s a bit circular to say, bc they broke the mold…

And i’m also a straight guy who doesn’t have any particular interest in men lol but vkei shenanigans never bothered me either; i just think it’d be cool if we could get to a more equal access point in my lifetime where all gender musicians can post as many thigh shots as they like, but also push music forward w/ their voices and stories

Like damn, tangent, but listening to 花風月’s music i think, imagine lyrics on these on the kinda instrumentals i like from vkei. Shame we’re missing out on that save for some rare exceptions.
And the closest thing i find to that is in alt idol, so i’m personally very happy to enjoy my favs there and see the style expand

4 Likes

Just adding my two cents, not agreeing nor disagreeing just a secret third thing (because it’s really Not That Deep) :

traditionally… rock (punk, goth, metal etc) bands have been fronted by men. And when you have attractive (personality or physically) men in a society that’s heteronormative, women should have an interest - that’s how it’s been since uh the Beatles? That’s how it was for the Japanese rock (punk, go … etc) scene too. Some bands made a point of standing out through crazy cosplay antics and that’s how vk happened. Some bands just happened to have attractive members dressing up so… yeah. Women will have an interest. And then the companies may choose to capitalize on that interest, as they did, as they do. It all happened sort of organically though. And then some stuff converge - you have a scene that’s inspired by counterculture in a traditionalistic male-centric society that also happens to have a bunch of female authors writing about M/M relationships and it’s onstage kissing waiting to happen. They dress for shock so it’s crossdressing waiting to happen. It’s not that complicated. And then the they/them flock in because yeah, that’s going to happen right?

But there are or were a lot of vk trends that weren’t straight-women-pandering - you can’t tell me that trend of vk PVs in the oughties always having some sexy blond woman as the love interest (or sex partner) is female gazey really. Because at the end of the day these bands are still bands. The intent of sex in vk isn’t always to be… sexually attractive, sometimes it’s to shock or vent - some of the stuff in the erotic topic is downright gross. There’s no eyecandy intent whatsoever. It’s about the feeling, and the feeling can be relatable no matter the gender or sexuality of the viewer. To be fair in my experience at least most girls I met in my life who were into vk weren’t even straight. And of course when so much of it is about shock and freedom it’s accepting of the marginalized including the Japanese they/thems lol it’s really not that. complicated.

The issue with idol groups as I see it happens regardless of gender and it’s why not many vk fans are accepting of kirakira for instance IMO. Kirakira and just “idol vk” with front men has been a thing for at least a decade now and yeah it’s idol bands in dark clothing. The issue is that they don’t play. And I’m the last person to speak against that because I love my idols but hey it’s fair to not care for that.

But there’s yet a deeper issue in all of this and that is how female-led bands are and have been historically a minority and not taken half as seriously. Female vocals can be taken seriously but that’s about it. And that, well, can’t really attribute it to anything besides sexist society. And of course since there are fewer women playing instruments there will be less skilled ones mathematically. It’s no different in the US or Japan or anywhere - if anything maybe Japan has been more welcoming of women in rock. Maybe kawaii anime girls singing rock anison are to thank or to blame for that.

It’s no secret that I love female vocals and grew up listening to the likes of KOKOMI and Tommy more than vk. I have nothing against it but I know some people do.

So it’s really a bit deeper than just "they’re female pandering >:( " but at the same time it’s not that deep. I guess vk - or just art - is escapism… when you live in a society where men take unauthorized pictures of women’s panties on the train that sort of escapism of men showing thighs is very welcomed. Very subversive. In good ways. Women in bikini is not half as much of A Sight To See as men in bikini lol. Otherwise, eh. Still think it’s something else. Not saying "vk isn’t sexualized >:( bangya are not fangirls >:( " or anything just “maybe there’s Something Else at play too” .

6 Likes

Oh damn i need more discussion about visual kei and the male / female gaze in my life; 0% joking i would read whole books on the subject

If i actually had a decent sense how to properly write towards a female gaze i’d be on that in every song/look/video i work on

Selfish reason maybe but: i want to write things women can like ^^"

Akashually
The thought here might have been to have the sexy blonde women as the place marker, the reader insert
And because of course all women want what they can’t have blonde hair and skin, when their ethnic says otherwise

1 Like

& bc u mention that, it reminds me…

back in peak “Royz is ruining vkei!” years, i went to see their 7hr live show where they played, in one go, all 200+ songs they’d written.
“Royz doesn’t care about the music, they just want fame and popularity”
Iirc there were only ~200 tickets sold; the livehouse was tinnnyyyy

I’m complaining about an old thing lol but it’s not ever fully left my mind; grinds my gears a bit that even in a scene kinda defined by feminine-presenting men, even so the less masculine seeming bands/groups/individuals seem to attract some extra hate from people who really don’t have to interact if it’s not their side of the scene

3 Likes

This was a great post and I agree with it. Anything I skipped is something I agree with and had nothing to add to.

The bold is why I’m here. Thanks for getting that out there.

And you are right about a lot of trend not being straight-women-pandering, but there are so many things that are (or come close enough) that it comes to dominate the conversation. The connections between visual kei and host culture. Individual photos as well as a group photo during promotional cycles. The overlap between certain visual kei musicians and gay porn. The existence of cheki - I have had zero interest in cheki because it’s literally made to fantasize.

If we go back to the simulacra and simulation discussion earlier in this thread, I feel even further removed from the scene than most other fans because I’ve never had the avenue to begin fantasizing. Just not interested in men! But that doesn’t mean there aren’t things that keep me around, or else I wouldn’t be here!

And there’s also a (long) conversation to be had about female safe spaces, and the difference between being attracted to a person versus being attracted to an idealized version of a person versus being attracted to a fantasy. With the example of two members on stage sharing a quick kiss, one person from the crowd can actually be attracted to the person, another person can be attracted to a version of that person that only lives in their head, and the third can totally be buying into the fantasy of gay love even if they aren’t interested in either! Everyone takes something different away from art.

I guess the frustration from my original post stems from realizing what I’ve been missing. It’s actually nice to see women in a visual style! It’s refreshing, it’s unique, and the sounds and influences are slightly different too. I say time and time again that visual kei changes every decade or so and that we can never quite predict where it’s going. I think that this is one of these changes!

Because if we step back in time to when I was new, the scene itself was rapidly transforming. I came in at the end of the kotekote scene. Everything was rapidly changing and by 2001 there were a lot of sofubi bands that were coming up! Kote bands were changing their style to something else, the scene felt really experimental, and no doubt there were fans of the 95-99 kote style that felt left out to dry.

I say all this to say that my impression of the scene is molded by this. I don’t just anticipate the scene to change, I expect it to! And I expect it to change drastically, in ways that alienate a lot of fans but potentially bring in new ones too. Because there were other changes, like the drift towards nu-metal, then metalcore, then deathcore. There was oshare that was popping for a while. That brand of visual kei around 2010 that people dubbed “neo visual kei” that had a lot of electronic influences. The alternative rock leanings of cocklobin and 9GOATS which indirectly led to the dominance of sukekiyo. I think you can throw these bands on the pile too. Looking back, it might seem so obvious for visual kei to expand in this way, but in the moment it seems like a total wtf move.

Just like 2000!

You touched upon a sore point of mine as well. I wish Aldious had more dynamic album art. Having group shots feels like a safe choice, and while I appreciate the glamour shots, the album cover is a vector for artistic expression too!

I hope that as this scene continues to grow and gain strength, that they find themselves more comfortable and free to go all out on their album covers.

4 Likes